Any feedback on first global PMS?
A critical look at Sage1(One)â performance:
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Dats is from September Investor Memo (screenshot attached)
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For ease of calculating CAGR return, FY2021 is considered a full year
Am holding Motilal PMS and having Hugh losses since 2017. Just mentioning so that others will be saved with such big name. Will be closing soon.
I have indicated some of their blunder in my past post; some recent ones.
They sold Dixton & Dr Lal before covid
Purchased RIL at 2152 - mainly to indicate in TV that we have holdings in RIL
Purchased Airtel on pick.
They donât have any exposure in tech; recently purchased HCL & LTI week back.
Am sure normal investor canât do such blunders.
Hi
One thing I would urge folks to do is calculate the returns from Sebi website and not go by letters. This is for folks who havenât invested in PMSes yet. Those who have already know how good or bad the PMS is doing.
Numbers quoted in letters sometimes has a lot of ifs and buts.
Rgds
Before closing account prematurely⌠you may please read the contract wellâŚthere are exit charges and on exit charges they would charge 18% GSTâŚ
Most of the PMS schemes have buy and hold strategyâŚBuy and hold strategy may be good if the selected stocks are fundamentally sound⌠Or else ⌠you tend to lose money⌠Further they would invest in stocks without any MOAT and even if the stock quality is extremely poor âŚonly God knows why ???
In fact if you invest on your own , you will get better return even if you invest in No brainer stock⌠and if you keep reading inputs in Valrpickr forumâŚand after your own assessment.
Discl: Invested earlier in RJ 's Alchemy PMSâŚclosed accounts prematurely after incurring a loss and after seeing the poor quality of stocksâŚ
Thanks @1957. Agree on own investment is better. Even if you losses you will learn. Mine is more than 3 yrs. Exit clause is for 1 yr, though imp point - will check.
could you please share the pdf?
Hi
Bloomberg Quint summarised the performance of PMSes in September. PFA article
Some of the key PMSes from the article YTD as mentioned by Bloomberg below. Some famous names lagging the indices YTD.
Rgds
Just one caveat here - the reporting on SEBI website is at PMS level and data is not provided for each scheme. So if a PMS has 3 schemes running, the reporting as of every month end provides the summary for all 3 schemes and not for each scheme.
It may so happen that a scheme might be at an outperformer while the other two might be slightly below the market return. In that case the returns indicated on the SEBI website will reflect the average of the three schemes - which in some cases is a meaningless data point. Always better to ask the PMS to provide return data for various entry dates to see how the portfolio for a particular scheme has been performing across entry dates.
The current levels of standardization and transparency in declaring PMS returns arenât satisfactory enough for investors to take decisions based on this alone. Investors need to ask basic questions and insist on more disclosures before investing. One would expect the distributor/wealth manager to do a comprehensive job of explaining this to investors but they rarely ever do this.
Thanks a lot for highlighting this - most retail investors (including myself) donât know this. There are so many people out there, especially on Twitter, whoâre misguiding gullible retail folk in terms of the PMS returns calculated from SEBI website.
Just have one question - are the PMS returns on SEBI simple average or weighted average returns based on the AUM per scheme? If itâs the weighted average - returns may basically be reflecting the flagship scheme performance.
Hi @zygo23554
This is common knowledge unlike newcomers who wouldnât know this. I understand that but many of the PMSes just have one arrangement. And even with some prominent ones who run are disclosing scheme wise returns of their best ones conveniently side stepping their non performing ones. Which is quite unethical. The only valid picture a prospective investor can get of a PMS return is SEBI and no other means.
Some PMSes in fact have gone and even advertised only their equity component ignoring their cash/fixed income component with a footnote.
In the name of garnering AUM this is a good game it seems. And novice retail investors go out copy PMS fund managers. For instance just today:
I wonder how many Coffee Can copycats will now put 0.1% allocation to these names without applying any common sense.
For transparency sake PPFAS is a very good benchmark not just because it is an MF so requires more reporting but things which they donât need to do they do. Coincidentally they have been better in terms of performance for retail investors than perhaps most PMSes at the moment. Lets see when the tide turns.
In FY21 even the most popular PMS schemes have started lagging the Nifty50. Novice investors actually donât have a single benchmark to compare.
Rgds
Deepak
Disc: Invested in PPFAS for 4 years so biased. And very impressed by the communication and transparency of the folks there. Have reached out to 7+ PMSes to invest in but never got scheme wise details and only got âwhy we are good and others are badâ type marketing material.
@deevee Given a choice, investors are better off going by SEBI numbers rather than what is declared in the PMS marketing material. There is no shortage of creativity when it comes to data representation in this industry, though SEBI has clear guidelines in place on how to report performance.
I would go one step further and ask them to show me actual customer portfolios (where sensitive information is masked/hidden) where inception date was 5 years ago, 3 years ago, 1 year ago, 6 months ago for the scheme under discussion. Actual portfolios never lie and cannot be misrepresented. See the starting corpus, what the market value is today and what the incremental inflows/outflows are. It takes them hardly 5 minutes to pick up such portfolios from the reporting system and give you this data. If they donât want to, we always have the option of looking elsewhere.
@gurjota - weighted average basis
sebi numbers does not give you a clear picture either. Till Sep-20 SEBI numbers was reported at a firm level. So a PMS with 50% of investments mandated into debt instruments and 50% in equity long only with a great performance track record will seem mediocre when compared to an average 100% equity PMS. plus many PMSes have multiple schemes and investor typically invests in 1-2 only. It is much better to ask scheme wise returns from the fund house itself. They are mandated to present it in a TWRR basis at scheme level. plus ask trans sectional data of how many investors have beaten the benchmark etc.
it is time weighted average. mandated by SEBI and typically calculated by the custodian no the fund house.
Hi Arjun
I understand you are a PMS manager. Thanks for the info.
On returns - rather it is the other way around on a long term basis debt weighted fund would have shown better returns as of today. And secondly it is like saying in the MF world âPPFAS is doing better because they invested in US tech stocks, wait till HDFC invests in US or PSUs turnaround.â Then what is portfolio construction and stock picking?
Anyways all the points you make Zygo has made. I understand that - to repeat myself.
I think we are going round and round in circles here. There is no standard way in which PMSes share their scheme wise returns (apart from the way Zygo has mentioned, for inquiring). PMS marketing material is mostly tweaked to suit them. For one scheme PMS the number of investors beating the index can be roughly calculated from SEBI data itself.
The sad part is when data favours a PMS manager/any AIF manager we get msgs like these
âWith x% returns in Apr-Sepâ20, ABC Fund is ahead of almost all of PMS/AIF as well as mutual fund schemes.â
Questions: In this case how does ABC get to know scheme wise performance of all PMS and AIFs (Cat3 I am assuming).
When the returns are not good, the argument is inverted like we are having here. And then they will say oh Apr-Sep is no scale to judge a fundâs performance.
All these examples I am giving are real and I have got these messages from PMSs/Investment Advisors as well as counter arguments.
It is heads I win and tails also I win for the PMS. While the novice retail investor remains clueless.
Rgds
Deepak
p.s. would have loved to share my blog posts on such topics but that is against the forum guidelines to popularise personal blogs
is some one using sageONE ( samit vartak) investement services, i want to know thought process of vartak sir, thanks in advance
He has shared his thought process quite a few times recently. Check YouTube for the same. If you are looking for performance figures, it should be available on the Sebi website or at some aggregator site. I think they could send you their track record. IMO, it is a wrong time to get into any new PMS when the market is trading at record high unless you know how to handle the risk associated.