Piramal Enterprises Ltd

Lower EBITDA margin could be because of higher raw material and logistics costs which the company wasn’t able to pass on fully to its customers. It could also be due to change in product mix and higher other expenses/corporate costs due to demerger. It needs to be monitored if the EBITDA margins of the operating business [excluding other income] come back to mid 20 levels.

The quality of moat around Piramal Pharma seems strong. But somehow it’s not translating into consistent high EBITDA margins and return ratios which questions the assumption if the moat is strong enough in the first place.

Disclosure : Invested from pre-demerger levels

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Based on Q1 FY23, total equity is 35k crore. https://www.piramal.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/PEL_Q1-FY23-Results-Presentation_Consolidated_vFINAL2.pdf

Equity : 5k crore (pharma) + 30k crore (financial service + other service)

My understanding is Piramal enterprise has financial services, Alternatives, Life insurance, and Unallocated equity (except Pharma business).

The market cap of Piramal enterprise is 19k crore (stock price is ~800) today (Oct 13) for 30k crore equity. Is my understanding correct?

If yes, why the stock is trading with a big discount?

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The networth of PEL is 30k.

The market could think that there will be more NPAs going forward, which could have an impact on their networth/equity. This could be one of the reason. Also they dont have retail lending experience, they acquired DHFL for the same and strengthened management team and also started to venture in lending outside of real estate and building that business, market may not have confidence that PEL could scale this business meaningfully without impacting networth.

These could be some reasons in my opinion for the Mcap to be lower than networth.

Disc: invested

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My comment will not be related to share price movement but just some general info.
Although financials have mystical balance sheets i.e. you don’t what can jump out of the bag but still credit ratings can do some what of a ok job especially with recent SEBI’s crackdown on these rating agencies.
Here’s the latest rating update. Hope it’s of some help
https://www.icra.in/Rationale/ShowRationaleReport/?Id=115090

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I won’t read too much into it, without any solid evidence. I feel it is a post special situation playing out and Mr. Market offering an opportunity. Among demerged entities, from what i know, most people were interested in the Pharma piece and not the Financial piece. So they may be offloading the Financial part. At around 0.5 P/B, any incremental risk in the book is already factored in (no evidence to that effect as of now) and i feel it is a good price to enter. Also, any capital inflow due to Sriram stake sale will be a big additional booster to the book value
Disclaimer - Invested and hence may be biased

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I think two things may be happening with the stock. Earlier, PEL consisted of Financial Services + Pharma. Some of the investors may be interested only in Pharma. They may be exiting their position as PEL is separated, causing the price to correct sharply in the last few weeks.

At the same time, there are NOT many positives in the stock(other than the valuation mentioned above).

If investors ask " What is the PEL stock now to buy?", there are not many positive answers, other than valuation point which is highlighted above by @Ravi_Hingarajiya

Cons:

  • Wholesale exposure is still 65%. Real estate wholesale exposure is a bad word for NBFC. NBFCs that have wholesale exposure have/are suffering. Edelweiss is one of them. IIFL Finance is reducing its wholesale exposure, though it is 3-5% of its overall loan book.
  • PEL is aiming to make Retail one-third in the next five years, but that is a long shot from today, so not sure how this plays out. Five years back, PEL was going full steam on wholesale lending and aiming to start a high-value mortgage business. Incidentally, they are curtailing both of them now. Five years is a long shot
  • DHFL book market has apprehension as it is not tested (not long enough) for PEL yet.
  • PEL does not provide much info on AIF/Insurance business, so we cannot say much about it.

NBFC’s competitive nature is also changing. RBI is imposing more and more regulations on NBFC, making their life a little hard. As a result, competition is also reducing. At the same time, Banks and Fintech players are also eating their lunch. So it is becoming competitive by the say.

In Wholesale, PEL seems to be ok with the Real estate business, but their non-real estate business has suffered badly in the last couple of years. However, looks like the economy is back on track, so non-RE should fare ok going forward (hope).

It looks to me that they do not have many downsides. How much down can it go? It can certainly go down a further 10/20%, but sooner or later, the market will realize the value (if they do not do another swing quarter).

Historically, Q4 has been very volatile and brought in wild fluctuations in profitability.

As PEL is separated, I hope that they have sorted the book reasonably well and starting the new inning on a relatively clean slate. Of course, there could be some write-offs, but I think they have reached the bottom.

For COVID, they provided 2000 cr+, but around 1900 cr + was still unutilized (I heard that number a couple of quarters back, but I’m not sure if that is still the same number now). So even if I presume some might be utilized, I think still 1500 cr+ may be unutilized (I am guessing here).

PEL is aiming for a Banking license, so they are making it bank ready. Time will tell if and when its materializes. However, they must demonstrate a robust risk profile and monitoring framework if they want RBI to grant their wishes. Otherwise, RBI will not grant their licenses. Based on their current actions (preventive provisioning in Covid/Mytrah) may be giving good indications for RBI.

Shriram. I guess their reorganization is about to complete in Oct/Nov. Assuming they get 2/3 quarters to settle their new business, PEL shall be in a position to exit their position in the next 4-6 quarters. So even if Armageddon happens next year (due to various issues in the world), they have a resource to withstand the stock.

In short, I think there could be some pain in the short term, but a medium to a long time shall ok IMO.

Note- Invested and views are biased

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Piramal Pharma Ltd (PPL) has received a letter from Sebi…The company expects that its shares will be listed on the Indian equity stock exchanges – BSE and NSE – next week, it said in a statement.

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Thanks, @Ketan_Chheda, @vibhor_vaish, and @paragbharambe for sharing your thoughts! I really appreciate it.

Here is my summary

Mr. Market Concerns (Cons)

  • Asset quality
  • Inexperience in the Retail lending business (It is outside of their core strength for wholesale (real estate) leading business)
  • Some PEL investors are interested in their Pharma business. They are selling their Financial business after the entities emerged.
  • Fear of DHFL acquisition
  • RBI’s new regulation for NBFC
  • Competition from Banks and Fintech

Pros

  • Good management track record (Textile → Phrama → NBFC)
    22% Revenue CAGR for 34 years
    26% Net Profit CAGR for 34 years
    They started their journey with the Textile business and successfully converted the Pharma business. Now added NBFC in the emperor.
  • No corporate governance issue as per my knowledge
  • Good valuation the PEL market value (stock price is ~800 and market cap is ~19k crore) is 0.5% of its book value.
  • Skin in the game (more than 50% promoters holding)
  • Trying to get a Bank license.

Feel free to let me know if I miss anything here.

Note: Invested in COVID time and will increase holding.

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In the Financials Business: they brought in Rupal Jhaveri as a President (ex-KKR PE). He is related to Anand Piramal. Not sure they have disclosed this. But is this good governance. No opinion about it - but did they disclose this?

Discl: Sold all my holdings bought since 2011 post demerger given the competitive landscape in the Financial Space and no competitive edge of Piramal Finance. It feels so much like “spray and pray”.

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Piramal Pharma will list on 19th Oct, just in time Diwali
BSE Notice for Piramal Pharma and Annexure

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So basically all social media influencers and even highly credible media outlet like moneylife were projecting Piramal twins post demerger valuation @ Rs. 95,000 crores (link: Piramal Enterprises: Hidden Value?) but now we know the actual numbers:

As of today, PEL @ Rs. 20,000 crores and PPL listing @ Rs.23,000 crores…combined value at Rs. 43,000 crores which is not much different from the combined entity and also not very far from he valuation at which Carlyle group picked up stake a couple of years back.

Sometimes even the top market professionals can also be be off by a wide margin. Fortunately, while I was very much tempted to invest but I didn’t. Lessons Learnt! Self due diligence is a must.

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“Expect 15 CAGR across different segments” for years to come-Nandini Piramal

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Agree, one should do one’s own due diligence and not go by expert opinion alone. But still, I am surprised it has closed at Rs.190 today, sounds low by all means.

Meanwhile, Both Sajal Kapoor and Aditya Khemka valued the pharma business at Rs.40,000 crore. Listen to this from 01:58:00 onwards…

https://twitter.com/AI_Feb21/status/1563457865578209280?s=20&t=f-oyjPsZG15ubYeU0njPyw

I think today’s trading cannot be construed as proper price discovery, one should wait a bit longer and see.

(Disc: Tracking position)

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T2T restriction, outflow from Investors not wanting the Pharma part, will have a drag on the stock price in near term, so YES the price discovery part is in progress, and might take a few weeks to sort out.

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I think it will take some time to discover the price for Pharma and financial service considering the complexity of both businesses despite the spin-off. Some investors are selling one or both stocks, which they do not want. Hence the market is creating distortion. This is not new in spin-offs and it does happen often.

The current price reflects what Caryle bought a stake Piramal Pharma, and the price paid was determined before Covid happened (please refer to one of my earlier posts where I posted a video of Ajay Piramal). Essentially it was not hyped price (In early 2020, as was the case in many pharma stocks in 2020/2021). It is all almost 2.5 years, and Carlye has not earned any returns. As it is PE funds, they would expect 15 CAGR to justify their investment and considering separation; they will be much better position to drive value for PPL.

From Q1 PPT,

One thing that stood out was Consistent revenue growth. PEL revenue and profitability were highly erratic and inconsistent (huge intermittent losses). PPL can bring stability and consistency in revenue, profitability and, hopefully, cash flow. If they deliver what they are saying now, PPL will be trading a lot higher than the current price.

Note- Invested and views are biased.

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They just took peak pharma (CDMO bull market) peer multiple and multiplied to PEL revenue.
Today its trading around 4-5x Revenue that’s really richly valued or fairly valued. At this multiple for example, fast food companies trade in India.

Today Syngene is trading at 8x revenue, 55x earnings if you ascribe similar multiple you will get what Sajal and Kehmka was saying nothing rocket science about it but one really has to answer why it should trade at this valuation ? and why Syngene is not trading expensive.

Generally Market as a whole > Expert. We should not just conclude arbitrary reasons or think markets are fool this early IMO.

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Today its trading around 4-5x Revenue that’s really richly valued or fairly valued. At this multiple for example, fast food companies trade in India.

PPL is not trading at 4-5x sales multiple, its trading at 3.2x TTM sales multiple. Considering the quality of businesses they own and the high barriers to entry in each business segment, a 3x Sales multiple is quite reasonable in my view.

Disc: Invested and adding.

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If you see FY22 Vs FY21
It looks like the markets are worried about the margins, Will they be able to come back to old margins? that’s where the upside is. It looks like the raw material, employee cost, etc everything in the expense item has gone up for them.

Now if you see last quarterly - Q1 FY23
The Pharma business grew 9% delivering revenues of INR 1,485 crores. If you annualized it then it comes to 1485 * 4 = 5940 Cr and if you calculate Mcap / Rev = its trading at 3.6x rev.

EBITA margins dipped as well but their say is they they do more margins in 2nd half .

"The business broadly delivered in line with EBITDA margin at 11% during the first quarter
versus 12% in the same quarter last year, despite moderate growth in our CDMO business, an
increase in the raw materials, packaging materials and operating costs.
As we have mentioned earlier, the nature of our Pharma business is such that we generate
significant part of our profits in the second half of the financial year. Last year, the second half
contributed nearly 70% to our profitability."

Not able to find details on this - " anyone knows what execution issues they are facing ?"

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Piramal Pharma has a higher probability of success than Piramal Fin Svcs given track record. It is a patient hold in my view. 4% of my portfolio. Added a little on LC today. Will add if this LC biz continues.

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