IDFC First Bank Limited

Nice view point,

Provisioning is more indicative of asset quality and capital requirments rather than cashflows.

Also, most provisioning should be covered in Standard asset provisioning maintained during disbursement.

Incremental provisions are made in many scenarios where provisions have litte to no impact on cashflows and usually contribute major chunk.
Some eg,

  1. Take products like construction financing, INVIT funding, infra etc where the product comes with inbuilt moratorium with only interest payments for a while and bulk payments later. ( Irregular cashflows)
  2. Non fund exposures where bank gives credit guarantee for a fee income- where literally no cashflows are expected.

Provisions infact will fracture the capital base and might increase the risk of rating downgrades and put pressure on growth rates and valuations(Considering dilutions & return rations compression).

Major benefits that I see from conservative nature is.

  1. Peace of mind for investors - Trust
  2. Valuation premium ( If taken for granted Valuation discount)
  3. Stable earning profile without sharp unexpected volatilites ( Depositors confidence, ability to stick on to market growth expectations)
  4. Ability to grow inline with 5year plans or above and for board to take timely planned dilutions rather than distressed dilutions.

Basically intangible and mostly compound positive effects.

Also liquidity:
Banks are always regulated with maintaining statutory liquidity ratios so, they can sell those liquid assets in case of liquidity issue.
Moreover in extreme cases like YES Bank, you always have RBI for special liquid lines.

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Thank you for the explaination.

So what I gauge from this is, it has more of a sentimental value than any tangible outputā€¦
So, actual asset quality remains the same whether it takes provision or not (its just reporting), but it may trigger sentiments that management is being conservativeā€¦
So please tell me if my viewpoint is correct: Management is normalising the results so that it wonā€™t show a spike in future. And there is less chance that there will be positive surprise from reverse of provisions (because if probability that accounts will remain standard is high, why would management take provision?). So, I should be worried about the actual book quality and cash flows rather than being positive about conservatism.

Anyways, it was about historical loansā€¦ right now, the bank is taking higher risk than other banks. I am saying this, because, recently I enquired about business account and CCā€¦ he said he will provide me the CC of upto 120% of collateral and thats the case for all the customers. I feel its not normal right? Also, it taps unbanked sectionā€¦ how to analyse this, they are taping unbanked sectionā€¦ and giving this much exposure, So, any views on this? About future asset quality? I just want to know if bank is being desperate to do businessā€¦ it should not be the case

P.S he also said that the bank has started the credit cards for their employees and will be available to customers after a month may beā€¦

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Yes, Book quality not cashflows. Cashflows will be relevant for NBFCs (less regulated before-with new regulations should maintain 100% liquidity coverage by 2024) and not banks(always tightly regulated).

Thanks for sharing this experience.

My opinion:
This is something I am living with at this point- and perhaps the only reason why Iā€™m not going 100% in.
Same is my experience with LAP, my credit line from Cred-IDFC
Very very aggresive lending may have unintended consequences.- infact itā€™s already reflecting in 300cr / quarter provisions on Retail book.

I am trying to justify this with below points on mind:

  • ANT has built a massive 280bill$ unsecured+ new to lending franchise at less than a 1% credit costs. - This is possible with bigdata and carefully pricing risk+ having control over customer cashflows.
  • In my NBFC days, senior business folks used to benchmark Capital first credit policies and many spoke very high of Capital first underwriting.
  • C.F used to be a AAA rated entity, itā€™s no easy feat getting there.
  • Diversification of asset pool, unlike most banks where wholesale usually takes up 40-50% of their book. IDFC is guiding that % at 20-30% which gives addition cushion in book stability.
    *Aggresive pricing of credit- their rates are pretty high compared to any other banks Iā€™ve seen- this can absorb some credit costs.
  • Best part with underwriting is, you experiment and might burn few hundred croresā€¦ but If everything goes well, youā€™ll hit a jackpot. you will have proprietary credit underwriting policy with cool profit pool untapped by other banks.

That said, we should monitor credit costs closely and see how the story evolves.

Yea, interesting one to watch out for. Last month when I checked in RBI monthly suppliment data they disbursed some 3k cards.

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Guys, I donā€™t want to invest in banks if they are scared to lend money. If banks are too conservative and stop lending then they are digging their own grave. Please donā€™t fall for this safe banks which are scared to lend. I am happy that IDFC is having the expertise to lend the unbanked section . CF has always maintained industry best NNPA and GNPAā€™s.

If thatā€™s the case, why would people take a loan from them? Wonā€™t I go to a bank where total costs to me are minimal? Infact, thatā€™s a general question regarding all pvt banks. I see lending rates to be much higher for private banks, compared to public banks. How is this sustained?

Fair point. This is fairly broad question.

Before answering this, let me share an example for you to ponder upon.

Gold loan case:
Lending by taking gold as mortgage is pretty straight forward business and very less risky- you donā€™t even need to know the name of the borrower if you have verified the ornament quality. Disbursements usually happen on same day.
So, folks like SBI offer gold loans at 7.5% interest and folks like Manappuram, Muthoot, IIFL lend at 18% interest.
yet, these three NBFCs have gold loan book over 50kcr and for SBI its hardly 6kcr.

my opinion on your question:

  1. Lending is usually done based on pre determined policies.
    These policies are drafted based on previous lending experience+ Business inputs - This usually leaves lot of niche credit pockets.
    eg: Some have policy of minimum income >25000 or minimum age 23, now what about people who are earning Rs.10,000 or <23 ? Here youā€™ll have pricing power along with risk.

  2. When you are in desperate need of liquidity- rate is the last thing youā€™ll look at- Agility matters.
    eg: Business folks, emergency needs etc.

  3. In Low ticket size or low duration loans, absolute value of interest rates look insignificant for individuals.
    eg: Appliances EMIs

  4. Borrowing is not E-commerce.
    It is not that you compare price in different banks and choose the lowest rate one and it can never be that coz, rates vary across risk profile for each and every bank. Rate which is quoted before processing the loan may not be the same as after processing the loan.

  5. Absolute amount matters for many.
    eg: Answer to above SBI examples lies in this pocket, same application across lender might have different loan eligibilities.

  6. There are dedicated companies in US who help you to reduce your cost of debt-
    so ya, there are always low risk borrowers ending up paying high interests. For instance, HDFC market share is 10% in loan book and 16% in net interest income yet, there they are managing a 10lakcr loan book.

  7. On retail side, public and private banks price the loans almost at similar rates [Barring SBI].
    Real low cost lending happens in SME,Infra, corporate lending and we all know that they own 65%+ market there.

  8. You can always change your customer segments and products.
    eg: Kotak after cracking the market with 7% interest, they have reduced the deposit rates and made their cost of funding profile close to that of big banks. and now offering HLs starting at lowest rate in the market.

In aggregate, there are enough niche pockets in lending where you have significant chunk of profits to be made, that too in a country where organized employment is less than 10%.

Also,
you donā€™t need private banks to take 100% market share to create wealth- if private banks share moves from 35% to 50% along with industry size expanding 10-12% every year, you can multiply your wealth significantly.

Pvt banks outstanding credit - 35lakcr
Public bank share credit- 65lakcr

Market size: if GPD moves To 5 trill $ and credit to GDP moves to 70% youā€™ll have 350 lak cr credit outstanding.

In this 35lakcr > 175lakcr journey there is simply too much wealth creation potential.

Not just in IDFC but in HDFC B, Kotak,Bandhan,Indus,CSB etc - Many retail focused or prudent underwriters.

So, our big question shouldnā€™t be will Pvt banks be competitive enough or is the market big enough,
it should be-

  • Will the lender i invest in have stable earning profile - without ups and downs [You should be able to draw a upward sloping straight line and earnings should follow]
  • Will the company maintain brand equity
  • Is the risk adjusted return profile good enough for the segments - NIM, Credit cost, ROA
  • Do company have depositors and stakeholder confidence -Liability gathering ability
  • Are they building competencies in their target markets- platforms, partnerships etc.
  • Are they customer centric and digital savvy enough.
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Some random thoughts on banking : in banking numbers are Optically furnished to lure investors but under forensic lens there is always disconect from real . High leverage is game which is base of capitalism but the fruits are only fetched by the inventors of finacial products . BEING RETAIL INVESTOR WE always have to compete against big Fundhouses with Army full of finacial wizards ā€¦ So while diving deep in to bank one must not plainly look at the plain CASA as a low cost of capital but they also have convertible bonds , warrants and whole set of other fund raising products when they exercised there is always a loss to a retail investor.
However the scope and growth of Banking sector will be very bright but this growth can also provide unparalleled opportunities of various other sectors like IT , Databases , Secure servers ,Manpower ,Collection agencies leading ratings agencies and so on . WHAT I SEE will be a major threat in future will be regulatory Threat and IOT PLATEFORMS ā€¦ rise of good service providers by microfinance and Banking Apps . AI will be coming very fast and the host new ChatBOTs or even TellerBOTs will be replacing the trading daya to day operations ā€¦
Regards

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https://freefincal.com/stock-analysis-idfc-first-bank/ good analysis

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Few questions after going through the Investor Presentation:

  1. What does ā€œinorganically acquired portfolio (mostly PSL)ā€ mean? Are these the same loans that banks are required to dish out to PS areas and are generally bought from NBFCs?

  2. Under the comments section against Client Description, the bank mentions possibility of any ā€œsignificant economic loss is lowā€. What does this mean?

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A bank can meet the PSL requirment by giving loans to relevant segment and sub segment. But most of the banks fail to provide adequate loans to sub segments.

To meet these they can buy portfolio or PSLC . If they fail to meet they will be penalized by allocation of RIDF bond. RIDF bond have low yield and is loss making

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Hello,

Does anyone have the information on IDFC bankā€™s loan terms to Vodafone? I want to know how much Amount (Principal + Interest) is Vodafone paying IDFC every year and by when would the bankā€™s exposure to Vodafone end? Any update on this topic would be highly appreciated.

Dec21- Jan 22 is when Vodafone is to pay back almost all of the loan.
Itā€™s in one of their recent presentations- not sure which one though. Interest cost would be negligible as far as I know.

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Hi Rushil,

Thank you for the reply. Is it possible for you to share that presentation, the one I saw after Q2 results didnt have that info.
Also, if it will be paid back so soon (within 1.5 years), then it looks like the vodafone debt issue is a bit overblown.

2 Likes

Hello,

I was analysing IDFCā€™s branch network expansion and related synergies. IDFC first has Operating expense per branch per quarter at approx. 3 crores (1588 cr. for 524 branches in Sepā€™20). It has gone significantly down compared to Sepā€™19 when it was 4 crores (1378 cr. for 351 branches).
But it is still significantly higher than other banks e.g. Bandhan bank is at 60 lakhs (677 cr. for 1045 branches) and HDFC is at 1.5 crores (8607 cr. for 5416 branches).

Can anyone please put some light on this disparity?

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Yes. Thanks for asking this question btw. Very pertinent. I am analyzing the ā€œOperating expensesā€ As of FY20 end for IDFCF Bank and HDFC Bank.

Attribute/Company IDFC First HDFC Bank Ratio (HDFC/IDFCF)
Total Branches 464 5430 11.7
Total Operating Expenses (cr) 5765 33036 5.73
OE/B 12.42 6.08 0.489
Payment to Employees (cr) 1795 12920 7.197
Total Employees 20222 116971 5.784
Payment/Employee (lakhs) 8.87 11.04 1.24
Rent, taxes, Lighting (cr) 292 1779 6.09
Printing & Stationery (cr) 64 448 7
Advertising & Publicity (cr) 139 100 0.719
Depreciation on Properties (cr) 320 1277 3.99
Repair & Maintenance (cr) 193 1293 6.69
Other expenditure (cr) 2806 13349 4.757
Total AUM (cr) 107000 993703 9.28
AUM/Employee 5.291 8.495 1.6
AUM/Branch 230.6 183 0.793

Some observations:

  1. The AUM size is ~10x more for HDFC bank. This gives a sense for HDFC first bank being 10x larger than IDFCF bank.
  2. IDFCF Bank has 10x lower number of branches, but only 5x lower number of employees. This means they employee 2x the number of employees per branch. This larger number of employees (compared to scale) also results in disproportionate outgo in employee expenses. This is what CEO means when he says operating expenses are front-loaded. There is significant operating leverage which might play out here.
  3. AUM/employee is much lower for IDFC First bank. As this number scales up, the Cost to income ratio would also go down, and this would be a key driver of operating leverage.
  4. It is my hypothesis that the Other expenditure part of the expense scales with number of employees. This is also validated by this note in HDFC Bank Annual Report: Includes professional fees, commission to sales agents, card and merchant acquiring expenses and system management fees.
  5. Other expenditure & Employee related expenses are both the largest expenses. Key monitorable for investment thesis playing out is sub-linear scaling of these with size of AUM. As management has guided for loan book starting to grow next quarter onwards, we should see this playing out next quarter onwards itself.

Raw data sources:
IDFCF bank AR for FY20
HDFC bank AR for FY20
HDFC bank website for number of employees FY20 end
Google search for IDFC first bank number of employees FY20 end

In the true spirit of collaborative investing, I request other investors to please carry out such comparisons with other banks of their choice and post the results on the thread for rest of us to consume. :slight_smile:

Disc: Invested. This is not a buy or sell recommendation.

43 Likes

I think another factor at play here is that IDFC First is currently targeting setting up of branches in the higher income areas(posh) of every city, so as to bring in the CASA and get that advertisement going among the affluent classes.
So most of the current branches are in the higher expenses areas.

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This is excellent analysis on cost and efficiency. Would love to see you do the same after AR 2020-21 of IDFC first to show the progress.

Disc: Strongly Invested

Given the regulatory changing and the potential for idfc and idfc bank to reverse merge- any views on whether its better to hold on to idfc bank or to shift to idfc instead.

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Thank you everyone for the great discussion and analysis so far. I would like to add a few more things not mentioned but pardon me if something is repeated.

First, please go through all of VPā€™s Capital First Ltd thread if you havenā€™t already, it also has some pretty good analysis and gives insight into how Vaidyanathan does things.

I think the strategy of 7% and high branch density in urban localities is starting to deliver really well. Following are the ratios of CASA/outstanding debit cards (I think outstanding debit cards can be safely assumed to approximate the number of savings accounts, so this can be assumed to be average CASA per account).

  • 3/2019 - 7893Cr/1463355 ~ 54000 Rs
  • 9/2019 - 12473Cr/1745881~ 71500 Rs
  • 9/2020 - 30181Cr/2432013 ~ 124000 Rs

I think this means existing customers are contributing heavily to CASA, seeing a big interest credit in the account every quarter is encouraging them to add more. Moreover, the average outstanding debit cards increase per month last year was ~45000, this year it is on track to be >60000. In September it was 99657, highest ever jump in a month. I would not be surprised if we see CASA increase by more than 10000Cr in Q3, but since the quarter is loaded with festivals it could be lower as people spend more.

Also, I have noticed in the bankā€™s engineering job openings that they are looking for someone with experience in Golang. IMO this is a really good sign of embracing modern tech, the language is relatively new and was designed to build highly scalable systems. The team is also consulting with people like this https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurencedejong/ to design their backends.

The bank is definitely making all the right moves, just hope they donā€™t chase growth at the cost of borrower quality. I personally feel the growth will be steady because people become more conservative as they age. I was overly optimistic until I went through all of CapF thread yesterday, still optimistic but doesnā€™t hurt to be cautious at this stage. This is my largest position but avg price is below PB 1 so Iā€™m comfortable maintaining it at this point.

Not a recommendation. You can check the outstanding card details here https://www.rbi.org.in/Scripts/ATMView.aspx

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Hi Sahil, it would be difficult to condense all that, especially because Iā€™m by no means an expert.
But I would suggest going through posts from 2016 until the merger to shorten reading time.

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