C2C Advanced Systems: Specialized Defence Play

I have also seen the video, 99% time is spend in pointing out clerical errors ( which is a very good effort by the way), its typical of a SME / small company and they will learn once they start reporting stuff to markets.

He also talks of high receivables etc, why do they need to open office in Dubai etc, the only conclusion is that the person has never worked in a corporate and is asking questions which are irrelevant. For instance, quote for fit outs has an expiry of 31st Dec’24 , he wants to know if the company has been able to get the validity of quote extended.

Anyone who understands corporates knows that all bids / offers to sell / buy anything have a validity period and they are final only when the order is confirmed.

He also needs to understand that Dubai is hub of middle east business activities and particularly of defence products, so getting an office there is sensible.

The IPO call has answers to lof of the queries he has raised.

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Cmde S K Pujari, Chief Technolgy Advisor, C2C Advanced Systems attending

DefSAT 2025 - AI-Enabled Mosaic Warfare: Transforming Multi-Domain Operations

(time stamp 46:06)

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What key learnings did u get from the SK Pujari. For me the takeaway points are

  • Quality data is required for leveraging AI models which is not available currently
  • Existing AI models available are not fit for use for military purposes as not trained on defense relevant data sets
  • International Standards need to be followed for developing any software
  • Mentioned other IT organizations lack the domain knowledge so this requires niche skillsets

Now based upon above points, these questions need to be put forth to the C2C management.

  • Quality data is required for leveraging AI models which is not available currently - > What efforts has C2C done to create AI models and train military specific datasets in last 2 years ? Which defense organization have they partnered with to get the relevant datasets to train their AL/ML model on ?

  • Existing AI models available are not fit for use for military purposes as not trained on defense relevant data sets → Can they throw some light on their developed AI models and how it is helping them in their C2C businesses ?

  • International Standards need to be followed for developing any software → This means highly skilled and competent workforce required.

  • Mentioned other IT organizations lack the domain knowledge so this requires niche skillsets → This means highly skilled and competent workforce required.

As per the IPO Meet , the management has themselves verbatim said “It also talks about skilled professionals .When we hire people we actually train them for 1.5 years to be skilled enough to work so that they understand the domain they are working into”. Timestamp around 21:50 mark

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Now as per RHP ,lets see the average past service years of their employees . It has been only 2.5 years at max and lowest was 1.75 years in FY 24 . Now if based on management words they train their employees for 1.5 years to gain domain knowledge ?? How can C2C let their trained employees leave so fast ?? When they should actually start contributing to the company success they are leaving??

Why is the average salary of their Highly Skilled Workforce so low ? 17.93 / 54 = Rs. 33k on average per month at max . Even large scale IT companies pay this much salary to freshers here the average age of employee is 35 years. What kind of highly skilled IT/ engineering resource at average age of 35 years earn Rs. 33k a month in a city like Bangalore where there is no issue with good companies and tech ecosystems ?

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Why is the attrition rate so high in FY 22 & FY 23 ?? Why has the number of contract workers increased so much in FY 24 ?

Put forward your opinions on what are your key takeaways . Posting a video without summarization or your opinions is just like SK Pujari meant "Having data without annotation " Does not add value to the thread

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Thank you for your valuable insight. Here onwards I will make sure that I summarize the data in hand

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Looking at the employee details on LinkedIn to get a sense of the workforce. Of the 107 employees, 80 are listed. Most of the senior management folks have been in the company for a long time. Rest of them seem to be very new( <2yr) and 10 of them are already looking for jobs outside. Its normal to have junior folks switching companies quickly but the numbers look high. I will assume that their core engineers maynot be listed on LinkedIn.
Looking at the background of the people in the software development related roles, most are from tier2/tier3 colleges and mostly freshers (some from colleges that are close to its Bangalore office) . This could explain the low salary/employee.

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From looking further check some of the past employees and current employees working on linkedin .

Some of these profiles SAP consultants which is completely unrelated to core business . These guys were working previously with Entransys Pvt Ltd .

Now look at vendors where the the utilization of funds mentioned by the company as per the RHP . These funds are being given to 3 vendors and basically all of them are into ERP consulting

  1. Yash Technologies Bangalore - SAP or ERP Consultant specialization.
  2. Entransys Privated Limited - Again SAP or ERP consulting services
  3. Yashas Computers - Seems to be a subsidiary or related part of Yash

This answers the question that why C2C on Indiamart is selling those ERP / CRM products . It is linked to Entransys and Yash Teh .

What relationship does Entransys and C2C have ? Why are the fixed assets they are building going to companies which are working on SAP or ERP technologies when they want to leverage investor money for Defense Experience Centers ?

The profiles with Qt Creator and C++ are the ones who to my knowledge are working on the core for the company which is software and tech for defense

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so what is the messge here … from your message it appears you believe the skills that they have hired are not adequate to make the software that they claim

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I believe only someone who has deep knowledge and expertize of defence industry (software, electronics etc) and having worked in the defence sector can only comment on which skills are required and which are not.

Rest all other people, who have never worked in the industry are just making half baked random comments on what skills are required and what skills are not required to develop a defence software!!!

Its fine if someone doesn’t like the company but making comments without industry knowledge is unwarranted…

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@hamir_asher

ERP consulting is what all IT Companies perform to support businesses run their ERP softwares . It is not a niched skill neither an area where a company like C2C should spend their efforts on as it is a mass market tool . Also SAP ERP has its own programing language which is called as ABAP ( Advanced Business Application Programming ) so these employees are not
useful to develop Control Management Systems software or any defense related software . This vertical of C2C demand valuations equal to any other IT company

I have connected with one of the employees of C2C and this is some of the information I have got

1. Entransys was merged into C2C Advanced Systems in 2022 ( at least their SAP team ) - > Why was this not conveyed to the investors and mentioned in the RHP . So basically Entransys and C2C have deeper relationships . Why did C2C decide to branch out into SAP / ERP consulting ? Why are they utilizing IPO funds and giving it to Entransys ? Whether Entransys is related party and whether transactions are happening at arms length price

2. They have already moved to the new office mentioned in RHP ( 5CE, Neil Tower, 5th Floor, Plot No: 117, Road No: 3, EPIP Phase1, Whitefield, Bengaluru – 560 066 ). I have also got to know they are expanding their SAP team and have openings in the company - > Why are they expanding in these non core businesses which cannot even add value to their defense business

3. According to the employee I spoke with they have over 100+ employees at C2C Around 8% to 10% of the employee strength ( assuming 100 as count of employee ) are working on SAP ERP consulting side . The employee I spoke with has not worked on Defense projects . → This does not come as a shock to me and he has been with the company since last 3 years first with Entransys and now with C2C …

Other technical skilled employees are also working on Qt / C++ / Java . Need to understand the size of their technical teams per skillset .

  1. On directly asking him how good is the company’s defense vertical and CMS system - > His response “Don’t know properly.” Ironically an employee working over 3 years in a company branding itself as a unique defense play and their employees does not much about their Defense vertical … Also brings me to the question where in the IPO meet they talked about training employees for 1.5 years . This employee does not know even know the basics about the company / its products and defense capabilities is not easy to digest .

They have people still working on C++ ( I am not sure if they can build AI / ML capabilties on top of such basic programming language. Maybe someone with knowledge can clarify if they can build AI/ ML for defense on C++ /qt / Java base )

Last fun fact : The employee I asked is also looking for a job switch

@fundoo if my half baked questions are not good enough for you kindly post some facts in support of C2C getting connected with their management . Atleast I am making an effort to ask the right questions not just leaving random comments .More happy if you can contribute to the thread in a positive way and ensure the points raised are addressed . This platform is no Twitter / X / Random Finfluencer Channel on Youtube which will only present good things about a company . The idea of the forums is to discuss and try to build an investment rationale so please help in contributing and I would be more than happy if we get more information about the company and can build our investment thesis on this rather than outrightly saying ohh this person is just making things up as he does not like the company .

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Exactly (you are right) ,
Valuation of a C4ISR system and its requirements for its development is highly competent in nature. It requires certain level of niche in the domain which is far beyond the capability of an average individual.

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According to what are the other players in defence sector which have some niche like do you consider or have studied Axiscades, Apollo micro systems and others

A simple question, the ERP consulting practice consists of process development and implementation. The process practice can be done by anyone and does not require SW skills, so it does not mean that these employees are not fit for job, they are SME’s much like what C2C must have employed to get the defense business underway.

As regards implementation, ABAP is a language not restricted to SAP its has broader applications. No college in the world teaches ERP or for that matter SAP so each company will skill / train / teach its employees on how to implement ERP. So nothing new here.

C2C has openly said that they are a software company and are also keen to use the SW skills for AI / ML / Mfg 4.0, yet again they are talking about using sensors and collecting data from sensors. Successful or not only time will tell but if there is an order from Malaysian navy and they have supplied i would like to believe that the process for qualification is there to show POC and then award business. No defense organisation will award business like lala company. If they fail there then the defense story will be over for good.

Now coming to use of fancy words which you have strong reservations, see any IT company and you will see AI / ML etc, which includes TCS, Infy etc all announced more than 1 year back in media and yet not 1 application which can be demonstrated for industry, so by your yardstick they should stop mentioning such things on their website and also they will be cheating their investors.

The employees in all companies keep looking out for jobs so what is so great about that, they dont know about defense, they are software developers and they need to know how to write codes, domain experts are the retd personnel on the board.

They are expanding into other business, obviously to diversify, why cant they not do it and why should they not, best is to consider defense as one of the verticals if you hate the word defense experts. TCS / INFY started as BFSI experts now they are into everything including BPO which includes setting teams to outsource finance and procurement operations, so should they do it or no and will they need software people to do it. These companies have hired BSc grads to reduce costs, are these grads knowing coding or anything related to IT.

Your analysis is commendable and very detailed and congratulations for it, but you are trying to thrust your views to be able to force your point of view, you dont like the company fine, make your point and let people decide what to do but the peripheral analysis on employees, why they want to expand and why spend more on ERP etc is not making sense.

Dont mean to offend you but in investment dont jump in with inherent biases. All SME’s start in this way and find their way through if the management is good and capable and will hence be able to scale, the success rates are less than 5% for this reason. Investment in such businesses is a lottery and lot of assumptions need to be simultaneously right.

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C2C Advanced Systems Ltd launches MAGI-C4ISR, a modular platform for designing next-gen C4ISR systems. It unifies development, integrates sensors, data, and communications, ensuring cyber security and operational efficiency

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An investor friend did scuttlebutt and talked to couple of employees and got to know that Commander Shashank is heading the AI/ML team in C2C Advanced Systems for the past one year. He is working full time with C2C in Bangalore office.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/shashank-dubey-pmp-72a424144?originalSubdomain=in

Looks like he hasn’t updated his linkedin profile for quite sometime since leaving Navy.

This guy has huge experience of 28 years in the Navy. He was among top official on the technical side and was heading the AI/ML initiatives in Navy.

He has done lot of relevant AI/ML courses from top reputed colleges and has a perfect mix of defence experience * AI/ML skillset

My friend got to know that C2C is working on multiple products/projects in AI/ML both in defence as well as Industrial 4.0 sectors (IIoT).

It will be really great to interact with him during the FY25 earnings concall or if investors decide to visit their bangalore office once the new experience center is up and running.

Hopefully, they will update the company website also to include top management personnel under “team” section soon so that Shashank becomes visible as C2C Employee publicly.

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https://www.linkedin.com/in/arpanb/

Sharing profile of another highly experienced senior management person in the company. Arpan has joined the company six months back as Head of Strategy and Corporate Development.

He has worked at leadership positions in the past and is an alumni of top colleges.

To me, it seems the company has really solidify its senior management core team in the past one year with a clear focus on growth and expansion. They have realised that they will need experts with specific domain knowledge in multiple areas to grow.

Earlier, only tech team (Narendra and Ramesh) was running the show and doing all things but that was not sustainable if the company has big aspirations and steep growth targets.

They have also strengthen their sales and BD team with top two hires (VP and AVP) in last one year. Both of them have rich experience in B2G and defence domains::

https://www.linkedin.com/in/anujkapila/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/arun-b-s-79ba38266/

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After hiring tech team in the USA, company is now hiring sales professional in USA

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Thanks for all the efforts in putting out much useful information. Company is on good footing fundamentally, however in current market scenario, where it seems this volatility will be prolonged, high valued companies are getting butchered irrespective of future growth, wouldn’t it be advisable to wait it out for some more time

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Hi, I never advise anyone to buy or sell (that is an individual investor decision). My purpose is to keep sharing reliable information and updates about the companies from multiple publicly available platforms.

Regarding high valuation, personally I don’t think C2C is trading at high valuations if they achieve their pre-ipo concall guidance of 130crs revenues and approx 35crs PAT in FY25.

This comes to 37x FY25 PE for a niche defence tech company with limited peers and potential to achieve very high growth in next 2-3 years. Company has access to both domestic and exports market. Just for reference, Apollo Microwave has recently done preferential at 60x FY25 PE at 114/- price

If someone hasn’t studied the company in detail then they should wait for FY25 results or other updates (partnerships, geographical expansion, orders etc) and subsequent management commentary in the FY25 results concall to build a more detailed view about the company.

Thanks

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As an investor, I am optimistic; however, I am a bit concerned about the cash conversion ratio (CCR) due to the long gestation period that is intrinsic to this particular line of business.

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DefSAT 2025 : Tech Brief - Futuristic C4ISR Systems : An Architectural Framework Driven Approach

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