Bitcoin/Cryptocurrencies – Digital Gold or Tulip Bulb?

ha so you think Argentina would not have failed if bitcoin was widely circulated and they didn’t have fiat money

The country doesn’t fail because a medium of exchange is abused. As I said it’s not the disease, it’s a symptom of something else that’s going wrong.

Mostly the economy fails because people either don’t/can’t work/produce or they consume more than they produce

Let’s for a moment say all fiat money is replaced with bitcoin and then Argentina gets into trouble

Do you think they should now sell the country to get some bitcoins so they can buy machines and food
Or die hungry or depend on charity
IMF and others will give loans but if they keep defaulting on these that will stop

What happened to Germany during ww2 when the currency failed and they didn’t have any currency. It’s what will happen to countries like Argentina when they run out of bitcoins

You also ignore or don’t understand the role of central bank and how it uses its currency, interest rate, bond purchases to keep the economy in balance

With bitcoin how do you propose to solve those issues

Let me put it another way. If I were a common man in Argentina, I would love to have bitcoin as a -

  1. Put option on their central banks money printing policies. If the govt kicks the can down the road, all is well (US). If it can’t, you get a Venezuela.
  2. As a liquid and trade-able medium of exchange in a dire situation. (Gold wont be able to do - difficult to carry, fight over purity, not easily divisible)

If my currency devalues by 1000% in a week, how do I price goods and buy stuff or how much salary hike do I ask my employer as daily wager?? I know im taking an edge case hard to imagine but there are people in 10 countries in the last decade alone who felt this. Taking a case from my personal life, India was divided, my great grand dad had to leave behind all wealth, land, factories gold. etc. My grandad had to find job as a TC and my family turned from being a thriving business family into one which wanted a secure job, nothing was ever the same as per my dad. Same with Bangladeshi, Afgan immigrants etc, Kashmiri pandits also. These are Indian examples only in the last 3 decades.

I truly agree with your point that Central banks need to use currencies int rates and bonds to keep the economy in check. And it would work tremendously well if the feds had a SOUL :). but the stark reality is that the central banks have shown again and again that they cannot be trusted to take care of the majority, CBs have been poisoned by the crony interests of the few.

I would like to point out that every bailout has only benefited the corporate and the super rich. Even in a country like US, where they are free to inject as much liquidity as they want, the side effects have been flat lining of income of the average American household over the last 40+ years, rising real inflation. Increase in their debt and people having to work multiple jobs to make rents and loan payments.

Also, I believe that governments will continue to have have Fiat currencies to control the basic economies of the countries but a bitcoin pegged global digital currency should find a place in the future. Didn’t we have a gold pegged Fiat currencies before?
Why would the world have a Dollar denominated forex market when US can hold a gun to any countries head and have their way through IMF and the likes.

I believe bitcoin in its final form will have a role to play in every Feds balance sheet. Only a maximalist will believe that Bitcoin will overtake everything, I myself see it as a great viable alternate which deserves more attention and is placed well as a digital means to transfer value.

Even the gold that countries buy is mined and takes man hours and other resources, just as a server mining bitcoin does. Why do countries own gold when they can print as much money as they can?

If world has already seen a time where govt and people can buy gold, and countries have had Gold pegged FIATs, then why cant it be the same for bitcoin? Did pegging the world currencies to Gold make it difficult for the central banks to function in a normal scenario? If this was the case, I would surely like to know and understand. I believe it only stopped the FED from doing rash things that they do now with ease.

One Last thing, countries do not need to dedicate resources towards mining of bitcoin now. 85% of bitcoins have already been mined. They can be bought from the open market. But having enough servers will ensure that any transactions on the network will let a miner make transaction fee. If a country wants a piece of the fee, they are free to setup a server and accumulate some bitcoins on the side.

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I understand where you are coming from but remember Gold also has industrial value

In olden times, when the only steel known to man was the occasional ones from comets crashing into earth, steel was more expensive than gold

Man found a way to make steel. Just as man has found a way to have around 300 types of cryptocoins

You cannot compare gold to cryptocoins as gold does have tremendous industrial value. Gold is a very good conductor of electricity and most computers have some amount of gold. hdmi tips have gold. If gold was easily reproduceable like steel from iron, we would have more utensils made of gold

When bitcoin was trading at $200 I had to buy roughly 300 bitcoins as a source we were working with only accepted bitcoins (for obvious reasons as they wanted to be anonymous). The data we got was important for a big court case. I didnt keep one bitcoin aside :slight_smile:

So it has some value there. Also its easy to fund and difficult to track for instance in cases wiht money laundering or sponsoring terrorism. So I do understand why governments even the ones that dont understand economics will actively try to limit its acceptance. They have been fighting drug abuse for decades and large adoption of bitcoin is only going to make the fight more difficult

Individually as well, how much money does one really really keep as a storage of wealth. You either put it in a bond/fixed deposit to earn interest or you invest if not shares then gold.

The inflation that you mentioned about is not really the fault of the currency. Its the fault of the government and even with pegged gold or bitcoin it will continue. To give you an example Japan had been fighting with deflation for a decade until 2008-9. All they had to do was print more money and it would have resulted into inflation. Why did they not ?

Also during the last century, gbp was a reserve currency. When countries and people swapped it to usd, it had an devastating effect on the country. Britain was a sick man of europe until Margaret Thatcher’s policies got it back to where it is.

US has a problem that it citizens are now spending more than they are producing by borrowing against houses and on credit cards. The scale is much larger than the holding of gbp in the last century.

Most people blame China for undercutting prices, etc but the reality is that an average Chinese has saved a lot of their produce, delaying gratification. The government has been able to use that savings to build roads, infrastructure, etc.

In India, the major savings are with LIC and you know how the government is almost at the brink of abusing it.

We dont have policies that encourage savings. In countries like Singapore, by default the company and the person working have to put aside together aorund 30% (it was 50% during their initial years). Countries like sweden, and UK have automatic pension savings in law, whcih means on average 6-10% of your earnings are automatically saved.

If you havent read, there is a book written as a story on economics, its written in a language, a 5th standard person would understand. Please read it, its possible to finish it in one go, “How an economy grows and why it crashes” by peter d. schiff.

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Paul Tudor Jones calls bitcoin a ‘great speculation,’

“money is a shared illusion” and “money is valuable because others believe it is valuable”.

Claims that the value of money relies exclusively on a shared illusion, however, suggests that its form is arbitrary. In reality, according to monetary history, the most common and sustainable monies possessed qualities that sustained their demand. For thousands of years, for example, economists have recognized gold as the most successful form of money, thanks to its scarcity, fungibility, and durability.

Often called digital gold, we believe bitcoin not only shares many of gold’s characteristics but also improves upon them.

Source : https://ark-invest.com/analyst-research/bitcoin-myths/

Nobody is asking to peg currency to Bitcoin. The idea is given the excessive money printing that’s currently happening around the world to cater for Covid Stimulus, inflation is bound to proceed and currency devaluation is likely. This is where the concept of Store of Value comes in.

12 years ago, Quantitative Easing happened due to GFC which fueled Satoshi Nakamoto to come up with Bitcoin, the rest is history.

You have to read the monkeys paw if you haven’t before wishing for something

Government is not an alien organisation, it’s us and from us. You have no idea what the consequences will be without QE

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There is this article which discusses about gold as an investment class. Might prove helpful in making the case for Bitcoin as well… It is quite detailed -

The way governments have been printing fiat currencies for stimulus is extraordinary. This will only make gold (and bitcoin) more valuable. Bitcoin is yet to stand to the test of time though.

Disc: Not invested in bitcoin yet, research ongoing.

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Companies like Square and MicroStrategy have added Bitcoin in their books.

Legendary Investors like Stan Druckenmiller have called Bitcoin a better bet against inflation than Gold.

Don’t make the mistake of equating Bitcoin’s 2020 rally with its 2017 rally.

Just published an in-depth article on how Bitcoin and its underlying technology actually works, risks associated with the technology and how to make sense of investing in cryptocurrencies.

It actually focuses more on the working of blockchain and what risks does the technology possess and less on the investing side of it. Do give it a read!

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The biggest problem with Cryptocurrency is that its not too expensive too mess with the underlying blockchain. If you own at least 23.2% of the computing power of the network, you’ve got tremendous power to mess with the blocks and if your control of computing power crosses 50%, you’re basically a King with power to do as you please

How much does it cost to create this level of compute power?
A few billion dollars as of March 2020 (low billions, dont know the precise number) and Quantum Computers might actually bring down this cost even further.
A few billion dollars might seem like an entry barrier but if you can own the ledger of something like an Etherum/Bitcoin for a few billion, its actually cheap.
Why hasnt it happened already?
Because if bitcoin/etherum’s vulnerability is displayed today, tomorrow bitcoin will be worth $0 so the billions spent would be useless.

The cost to overpower the network might rise in the future as more compute power joins the network but so will the value of the network so the incentive to spend more to control the network will also increase.

Those looking to invest into Bitcoin, please do keep this in mind

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Spending more to control the network is akin to shooting oneself in the foot. It is not going to benefit the supposed controller of the network. By the time he/she controls it, the value of Bitcoin will drop massive that the whole purpose of the game would be lost.

The collapse of Bitcoin will be inevitable if its price doesn’t keep up. Once Bitcoin supply maxes out, many miners would drop out, because their incentives will dip sharply. The only way they can earn is through network fees, which when hiked beyond a point will turn people against Bitcoin.

Learn more about the fall of Bitcoin from https://batcoif.com/

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And now this is happening…Tesla purchased Bitcoin for $1.5 billion and also plans to start accepting it as payment for its products.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/08/tesla-buys-1point5-billion-in-bitcoin.html

Is there anybody here who has invested a part of their Liquid assets in Crypto?

The Indian government is looking to pass the bill to ban crypto.
In developed countries it is a legal tender.
How the developing countries can lag behind is not clear.
Already Tesla has confirmed.
Now rumours are Apple is in the process.

Calling crypto as legal tender is contradictory, no? Thought the entire point of crypto was no Govt controls it.

Govt regulation is bad only because it stops one from making crazy speculative bets. Regulation is good only because it stops one from making crazy speculative bets.