Vinati Organics

This seems the first time management has acknowledged the adverse impact on ATBS due to oil and gas sector, though they’ve also said its been made up by uptick in demand from Pharma. It is almost certain that growth will be slower for another 2 years and the only trigger could be commissioning of the PAP project (which may take years since it had already failed once) and second could be ramp up of Butyl Phenols which is already delayed because of lock down(It should also be noted that BP is a low margin domestic product). Overall these factors are not so encouraging for Vinati’s business and will have to wait and watch how management will navigate through these pressing times.

Disclosure: Invested and Holding.

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It’s a blessing in disguise that Pap is not being commissioned as the product level Roce profile isn’t more than 14-15% (some correction)

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Basically, Capital employed would be 750 crores (ballpark)

EBIT Margins of 15-16% (Ballpark)

Sales of 600 crores as Asset turns of 1x

company would have been making EBIT of 90-100 crores on capital employed of 750 crores

100/750= somewhere around 13-15%

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I don’t understand your calculations
Vinati said 600 crore will give annual revenue of 600 crore, and 120 crore profit before tax and depreciation
Let’s say 10 year’s depreciation
So annual profit is 60 crore
Tax of 20pc

Then there is Valiant Organics by promoters of Arti industries that already have a PAP plant and at much lower PE

I think vinati might not go for pap if margins don’t improve

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With Electric Vehicles plying more on the road, the demand for Oil will be decreasing and hence the demand for ATBS. Has anyone figured it out how much this going to impact the topline as well as bottomline down the years?

Whats the update and commissioning status on PAP plant at valiant organics ? Will they succeed when Vinati has failed in it?

Both Valiant and Aarti Industries are Indian suppliers of PAP, although majority is imported from China.

Synthesizing PAP isn’t a problem as there are conventional methods available. Deepak Nitrite may also get into it as their Phenol plant may help them produce it cost effectively.

However, Vinati Organic’s strategy is different. They want to produce it in a greener and much cost efficient way via the catalytic hydrogenation of Nitrobenzene. This pathway isn’t new as well as there are at-least two such catalysts (here & here).

So, evidently they are attempting to develop a novel green catalyst which will ensure that the process becomes highly cost effective and waste generation is minimal.

In this way they will be able to match the cost efficiency of Chinese suppliers (and Deepak). And more importantly, their variant of PAP will have minimal impurity (due to less waste) and even those trace amount of impurities will be mostly harmless (green process). This is very important as PAP goes on to produce Paracetamol formulation and harmful impurities are unwelcome there.

So, this means that Vinati may become the preferred supplier to most leading pharma companies if they succeed, even if they sell it at a greater cost. Now, we all know Paracetamol is even more popular than Ibuprofen and so the volumes they will be able to sell is huge. This is a big lucrative opportunity and is worth spending R&D effort on.

Who knows in what step the carcinogen entered in the above case, but this is serious. So, formulation companies are very strict on such incidents and will always prefer a manufacturer who supplies the purest variety.

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I don’t see any major impact on the Q1Fy21 of the lockdown, compared to Q4fy20… Is this because of the IBB? coz ATBS is down but as Vinati Mutreja said in a interview 2 months or so back that they are seeing high demand for IBB.
but if you compare it with Q1fy20… Then there’s another story, anyone knows why the fall?

Management interview (link)

  • ATBS: demand slowdown because of oil contraction; 25-30% volume de-growth; Realizations have come down because of raw material price drop (margins intact); Expanding ATBS capacity for addressing future demand (not only looking at current demand)
  • IBB demand strong in Q1 but will contract going forward because a lot of stocking up happened
  • Butyl Phenol plant will be operating in full swing by Q3FY21; should see revenue growth by Q3; Currently labor shortage has led to manufacturing of only 2 out of 4 molecules
  • Revenue for FY21 will be similar to FY20;
  • CAPEX plan for FY21 is 125 cr.
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On labor front she did not mention any concern in May 20th Interview, @5:30 onward https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDg7xB__4Hw&t=330s

Hi everyone, I have been trying to understand the business for the past few weeks. Thanks to everyone for making the thread so insightful and kudos to people like @vivek_mashrani who had found the business so early and had the conviction to hold on :slight_smile:

Here’s my take on Vinati Organics using Business Model Canvas to try and understand the business first, would love feedback on the same (anything I’ve missed out/misinterpreted)


(Here’s the link to google docs in case anyone wants to make their copy
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qTP2HRDpQYGU6467mKfR2nqpMg2z_FT_sc9WqfjZrFI/edit?usp=sharing)

Now, coming on to the main question, what are the sources of growth for Vinati for the next few years?
(I’ve mostly used FY19 numbers, though FY20 Annual Report will give the most recent picture)

1. ATBS
According to FY19 numbers, Vinati sold 26000 MTPA (100% capacity utilization) of ATBS and the revenue recorded was Rs 638cr, which roughly translates to a price of Rs 245/kg.
Now, this price was on the higher side due to the exit of Lubrizol, spurt in demand and is more likely to be a one-off thing.
In the last decade, price of ATBS has fluctuated from Rs 150/kg to Rs 200/kg (barring FY 19) and this might give the real picture for the price realization in the longer term.

Management had guided (in FY18) that ATBS volumes can grow 20-25% for the next 3-4 years and reach 100% utilization in the expanded 40,000 MTPA capacity.

I think one major factor as an investor betting on Vinati is the belief that the demand for ATBS will be there and the market will grow 10-12% YoY (as per management guidance).

While it’s hard to predict when the demand stabilises (due to ~20% of it being dependent on Enhanced Oil Recovery and the globally low oil prices) and reach 100% utilization, I have tried to analyze the best capacity utilization with different price range below:


It seems like it is safe to assume that ATBS can generate 700cr odd figure, growing 10% + YoY

Also, for ATBS, the following factors can act in favour of Vinati:

a) ATBS is a high margin product
Put simply, better contribution to the bottomline compared to other products, added to the fact that 50%+ sales are coming from this

(According to FY10 concall when ATBS realizations were around rs 150/kg, ATBS EBITDA margins were around 25% as per management, since then Vinati’s backward integration into IB has led to ~15% saving in costs on logistics and excise as per Ambit Report. Also, the exit of Lubrizol, coupled with increased capacity of ATBS and increasingly dominant market share of Vinati in this segment will ensure margins remain healthy)

b) Growing Market Share
Vinati might be able to steal competitors market share because of reasons like:

i) Better purity of product with little/no discolouration
ii) Advantage of scale (65% global market share with enough capacity of 25000 MTPA to cater to demand for the next few years) and low cost (backward integration with IB)

c) Pricing Power
While this is hard to quantify, but if and when Vinati gains more market share, I assume there will be at least some sort of pricing power with Vinati because of the huge market share it will have
Key Monitorable: How well the ATBS market grows and Vinati’s ability to use the expanded production facility

2. IBB
According to FY19 Annual Report, sales in FY18 were 161cr and the capacity utilization at that time was ~60%
Given that the total capacity for IBB is 25000 MTPA, that roughly translates to 15000 MTPA, which gives the realization price of ~Rs 107/kg, which is also supported by the data below:


Price seems to have been on an increasing trend (barring the exceptional spike in FY21, which again seems unsustainable in the long term but will definitely help Vinati in the short term)

(Source: https://phreakonomics.in/export-import/micro-individual?type=exports&hscode_commodity=1500&startDate=2015-08-01&endDate=2020-08-01&currency=inr&consolidation=quarter)

Have done a simple analysis of different scenarios again to see the revenue potential:

Let’s assume a ballpark figure of Rs 250 odd crore sales from IBB and since it is a mature market, it won’t grow much, maybe 3-5% CAGR (should grow faster in the short term due to growing pharma/covid situation)

IBB should prove to be a stable market since majority of it is used to make Ibuprofen, unless something adverse happens (like FDA banning it)

Trigger: If some kind of forward integration can be done in this (as IBAP was proposed earlier but the customer didn’t want to source it then), that can be an added bonus. Otherwise, this should be more or less stable

Now, coming to the ‘future’ part, what can provide visibility of growth in the next few years:

3. Butyl Phenols
The 4 types of Butyl Phenols which will start manufacturing this year ( PTBP, OTBP, 2,4 DTBP and 2,6 DTBP) have a revenue potential of 350-400cr (at full capacity, which should be the case in FY22).

Here again, 1/3 input is IB so again Vinati has an advantage here over peers in terms of cost and RM availability.

Also, the management guided in FY18 that the end-user market of BP might be growing at 10-12%.

Currently, around 25,000 MTPA of BP are imported in India and the global size is in lacs of MTPA while Vinati is setting up a capacity of 39,000 MTPA, which tells us that the management is fairly confident of competing in the global market for exports.

In the pre-feasibility report of Aug’16, Vinati estimates that the market size is 4 lac TPA for BP (with the caveat that this also includes the quantity used for captive use)

So, assuming even 1-2 lac MTPA market, the potential for Vinati (assuming that it is able to scale successfully and competes in the global market) can be anywhere between 1200-2000 cr

One thing which gives me some sort of confidence in this segment is that the management is looking to compete globally in a new product, is making good use of synergy (backward integration by using IB), is hungry and has a good past record (which obviously only time will tell how well can they replicate it)

This can be the growth driver for next 2-3 years (350-400cr sales from BPs can increase sales by 30-40% in FY22, provided that ATBS and IBB are stable)

Key Monitorables:
i) How fast can they launch Butyl Phenols
ii) How well they can compete in the global market and scale
iii) If any sort of integration can be done

4. PAP
The only thing to mention here is that if Vinati can get this one correctly, it can be a game changer (albeit a low margin product) because of superior technology (as already mentioned in one of the above posts) which will lead to lower costs and might increase preference for Vinati in a huge market size due to PAP being the key raw material for Paracetamol.

Key thing to be seen is how well can the company make use of its cash cows-ATBS and IBB to experiment and successfully launch new products for future growth

Would love to know other opinions :slight_smile:

Disclosure: Tracking, not invested

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Good analysis, except one thing I would like to point out:

The primary application of ATBS is in Enhanced Oil Recovery (EOR). Typically, it takes oil price of $ 70 per barrel or higher for oil companies to invest in ATBS and make EOR profitable. Pre-Covid & pre-oil price crash, around 40% of Vinati’s ATBS production went into EOR. In the current scenario it will be a challenge to sell increased capacity of ATBS. Management’s own earlier estimate was 3 years, now it will be even longer if at all it ever happens.

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Hi,
Thanks for pointing that out. What I read was that EOR caters to roughly 20-25% demand for ATBS.
40% will surely make a bigger dent, could you please tell me your source for this data?

Hi, 40% was mentioned by the management at the time of AGM last year which I attended.

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True, 40% of ATBS revenue coming from ‘oil and gas’ segment has been corroborated by the management in recent media interviews. The number has risen from 15-20% in past years to 40% now. However, I would be more interested in understanding EOR break even levels, as some time back in March/April, Donald Trump quoted USD43/barrel as break even price for US energy producers. Anyways, it could vary in other geographies citing the technology and know-how applied.

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Correct me if i am wrong
But this would take their ATBS sales to nil given that oil prices are hovering around $40-$45 per barrel for last few quarters

Always inspect such day-to-day jumps with movements of Comparable Index and Peer Stocks.

For example: today small cap index is up nearly 2% and Peer stocks with uncertainty like Transpek is also up more than 10%. (Agro tech foods in a different industry has hit upper circuit) Guess, we are just seeing hoarding of quality mid-small caps now.

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Exchange has sought clarification on the significant price movement from the company
https://www.bseindia.com/corporates/anndet_new.aspx?newsid=b9e77dc9-6a86-4ef5-b06b-39d56daf9412

Latest annual report is out. Like all other companies, AGM will be virtually arranged.

https://vinatiorganics.com/uploads/7280VINATI%20ORGANICS%20LTD%20ANNUAL%20REPORT%2031.03.2020.pdf

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The company is undertaking a capex of ~150cr which will be used for expanding capacity of PTBBA plant and for manufacturing 4 new specialty chemicals to be used in agrochem, dyes and plastic additives.
Capex will be completed during FY21 and is expected to add ~240cr once completed

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