ValuePickr Forum

If you CAN'T BOTHER to research/present a BALANCED view with decent RISK assessment, you have NO RIGHTS to start a thread on that business

bijoy,

The problem to admin getting lax and allowing the kind of posts to discuss new stocks is that there will be a lot of low quality discussions on junk kind of stocks and at some point of time when the music stops in these counters first time naive investors who are lured by crazy price movements in illiquid counters would be burnt badly and would never come back to the stock markets.

The aim of VP remember is to educate the investors and make them better investors.

In TED there was lockout of accounts without giving any reason and without giving any chance to answer . Here it is not so and subash can put up any grievance he wants to.

I think subash nayak should take this thing in his stride and move on and start posting again whenever wherever he feels value is being added. I have always admired his investment acumen and would urge him to continue posting without any ill feelings. Just consider this as a small reprimand from a school called VP.

There will be points and arguments against the objections raised against his post but at the end of the day its no use arguing endlessly and always better to move on with a fresh start.

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Free-format discussion/Queries on a stock idea are encouraged at Company Q&A section.
One can easily solicit member views on an idea where one hasn’t done much work, but wants to point others to an idea, where there is earnings momentum, hint of a turnaround, and the like.

All are free to share even prelim work in company Q&A section, or just point folks to an opportunity with just 1 or 2 paras.

But if you are going to start a thread on a stock Opportunity, you got to take responsibility. You got to adhere to the Guidelines - on opening a new thread - that have been very clearly spelt out right from the start. We believe that VP is respected for discussion quality - is primarily because of this type of simple guidelines, that have been pretty easy to follow - for those who look forward to learn from sharing and learning from the feedback on GAPS.

Those who take the stand that they cannot be bothered to work further beyond what they first post - can’t be bothered to work on the GAPS, can’t be bothered to bring a balance back into an objective discussion on the Opportunity - are simply not being responsible. If you are reluctant/can’t do the basic work required/don’t have the time, etc - its better not to use the Stock Opportunity section.

Instead such folks can restrict to posting on the Company Q&A section, for businesses where no thread exists for the specific stock opportunity. And life would be simpler, both for Admin & themselves.

As & when there is enough meat in that Company Q&A thread, someone who has the time and the passion to do the needful, can initiate the discussion in the Stock Opportunity section.

Hope things are getting clearer through more open exchanges like this.

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Moderation is a double-edged sword.

I guess what the Admin team is saying is that the interests of the naive investor need to be protected, lest he/she stop investing after a bitter investing experience upfront, in spite of following some thread on VP.

What Subash is saying is that the naive investor needs to grow up, and cannot be spoonfed/handheld.
We all know that he started this thread to tell us which side of the sword he thinks is sharper.

This is a classic problem in mentoring (not only investing).
Someone needs to draw a line somewhere as the Admin team (metnors) did.
Lets all agree to disagree and get back to presenting our views in a constructive manner on where the line needs to be drawn.

@vidurchhabra @chintans

Thanks for sharing your valued viewpoints. Our posts crossed.

Please stay true to that spirit, and respond further: Why Company Q&A Section - is not the best place for free-format idea generation exercises, as mentioned/desired.

Perhaps some new members are not aware of the utility and purpose of the different sections. But VP old-timers certainly are.

Everyone please note:

  1. Stock Opportunity section is serious business. No slack allowed here.
  2. Company Q&A section - is free-format. Use as light or as heavy information/base analysis as you want.

One cannot expect to disregard the Guidelines, and play it both-ways. It’s like asking to have your cake (take all the slack as you deem fit) and eat it too (yet be allowed to continue to influence an objective discussion, without being accountable).

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Dear:

Just as every time we board airplane, we need to compulsorily follow procedure including listening to emergency instruction from air hostess, so also moderators may be compulsorily trying to enforce certain things for the greater good.( If you take a sample estimate from people on a plane, many will say that some of this procedure need not be compulsorily enforced but it still persists).

You are a much smarter in stocks than me and when top contributors like Anant Jain and Hiteshbhai have acknowledged your skills, it comes to full stop.

I hope to hear more of your views on stocks from you in future on the forum.

Thanks

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Please pardon my sarcasm, but Admin sir could have moved the thread to Q&A section (without creating any scene), if it was so easy :stuck_out_tongue:.

Also, fully appreciate people’s love for rules abiding forum. Wish you a rule abiding forum, serving thousands of naive investor, saving them from preying piranhas (Though I have serious doubts on efficacy/possibility of the same). Please, wish me sleepless night, trying to understand valuation anomalies in small/micro-cap stocks.

Frankly speaking, I was residing in an old world vp, where ideas were challenged, counter-challenged, people’s short-comings were ignored, everyone put there best foot forward, and we collaboratively find new ideas; peoples were genuinely interested in new ideas, and minting money out of it.

These days people here seems to be more interested in following rules and guidelines, finding shortcomings (rather than filling shortcomings), telling how bad someone’s behavior/post is. Sadly, I don’t feel at home here anymore !!!

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Maybe I could have resisted from writing this as may not make any difference, but still maybe a last attempt to put across the POV.

True, but please imagine if all members start thinking like this then what would this lead to.

Please think if everybody starts thinking like this then how much more difficult would admin’s job become. It is like littering in a public park and if somebody objects, then asking that person to do it himself. Imagine yourself as a supervisor, would you always like to spend your time correcting other’s mistakes or would you like to guide them, so that they don’t do that mistake again. Also if its easy for admin then its easy for us too. It is just about starting the thread in relevant section.

Let us evaluate or judge the efforts on the basis of how many naive investors are educated and saved rather than how many weren’t. Even if it is 5 or 10 out of 11000, then still it is worth it. Trust me on this, as I have seen people losing thier shirts with responsibility of 2 daugthers to wed or educate. If just by writing 10 additional lines and few additional key strokes on our laptop, from the comfort of our homes, we can contribute towards this cause, then why not.

Times change. Valuepickr has evolved from those times because of positive contribution from people like you ( I personally also like many of your previous posts). Repuation and credibility has been earned by valupickr, it has got more and more visibility. With all this and in markets like this comes additional responsibility which needs to be shouldered by everybody.

Maybe the admin could have used a bit softer words to convey the message as everybody are adults over here and I know people can feel offended in a public forum. But the message was not wrong, it wouldn’t have taken much time to just start a thread in the relevant section and add few additional lines.

I personally have a lot to learn from people like you and really do think that some of your posts that I had gone through were really good and value add. Sincere request to put this behind and continue to contribute positively like you have in the past.

Kind Regards.

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I think it is very important to recognize here that both the initiator of an post/stock story and the moderator/admin have good intentions as the primary driver of their posts/actions.

The initiator wants to share his/her views on a new idea which he/she feels has potential to create value for investors and hence wants to share the same with the tribesmen. On the other hand, the moderator has a job to ensure that given the wide spectrum of members on this forum, no unintended damage is done to the investors who are learning the ropes or are entering the market for the first time So, if we work with that basic premise, the context is set right for the discussion.

Then the real focus should be to ensure that the rules/guidelines are so designed to maintain the fine balance between the twin objective of both the stakeholders (Member & Admin). Instead of getting into debate around once specific instance (which of course has triggered this discussion), I feel we should delve upon

  • What are the key governing principles around which the guidelines
    should revolve/is revolving ?
    • As we all understand, as any organization/forum evolves so does it’s needs. Hence, in the context of VP which is much larger today than few years ago and involves wider spectrum of investors, are current guidelines adequate to serve the need of the forum or do we need to tweak it to ensure that it meets with the needs of larger community without undermining the fundamental principles on which VP is founded?
    • What is SOP (standard operating procedure) for handling the deviation from guidelines in terms of communication? How do we ensure that the exception to guidelines are handled in manner that is not harsh to the member?

Having said that, I feel it is very important to have a guideline/rule based forum or else with 11,000 members participating in free flowing discussions,we risk the forum becoming another moneycontrol message board/TED. We must ensure, that VP remains a forum that is regarded for it’s structured and balanced discussions and collaborative effort. Thus, having right guidelines and enforcing them dispassionately is critical for the success of VP.

@subashnayak_19_, I am sure many on this forum will recognize your excellent contribution to this forum as I am surely one of them. VP, from it’s early years have benefited from time to time from your posts/inputs. I personally feel that it is perfectly fine to have diametrically opposite view point and yet collaboratively prosper together on forum like VP.

I am sure all of us including admin and moderator will agree that VP is because of it’s tribe and not otherwise. Based on my limited experience, I feel VP is a unique platform that is created by all of us and belongs to all of us. The sense of belonging that I see in many VP folks is exemplary. We must ensure that this unique experiment in collaborative research grows multifold and benefits the larger investor community in the long run.

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don’t see why people need run around starting threads unnecessarily. there
are threads for many good stocks here that are still under valued.
coat-tail investing can also be very rewarding.

Much water has flown over in last few days.

And it’s really great to witness again the quality of folks we keep attracting at VP. This thread again is an example of a quality VP thread - that has effectively put all cards on the table - on both sides, so all of us can come away wiser from the spat. Great thoughts and great skill shown by many in cutting through the clutter on a complex issue.

As Hitesh says, its time to move on. But I can’t help adding 2 points, hopefully crisply

  1. No-more a fun place - I am with Subash on VP no more being the completely open, freely-collaborating time, challenging fun-time, and great learning-curve time we had from 2010-11-12

How we wish we could go back to those carefree times! Every VP Old Timer would love to be back there. Unfortunately the child has grown up, and finds the adult world “shackling” him in. He realises there are no free lunches, in life. Responsibility & Accountability has to be handled like an Adult. He has to think twice, thrice before posting :frowning:

2.Credibility Questions - Ayush & Me face this the most - being the public face of VP

a) Isn’t a Disclosure “I have significant investments” a complete farce in the light of VP subscriber base today. For any popular/prolific poster at VP - that’s actually an advertisement. Any decent writer packages an unheard stock story well, posts at VP with nice disclaimers, more often then not, we see stocks spurting

b) Management Q&As - implies proximity to Management & Insider Information - started getting levelled against us from 2012. The first time we heard this was from a very senior functionary in BSE! To take care of UPSI (unpublished price sensitive information) apart from publishing at VP, we have been persuading company Managements to also put up the Q&A at company websites. Happy to report MPS has put up VP Q&A on its website

3.Most veterans/well wishers have been warning us for last couple of years, that VP can be in real danger of getting closed down. Is it really worth all the trouble? Why carry on with this double-edged sword hanging over you? Why not continue your work silently??

We at VP - the top 20 Contributors - when we met at Goa last June - decided unanimously to continue. Though everyone admitted it would be a far easier life (no hassles job) to continue what we are doing within this fab group, if we did not write at VP :).

We all wanted to continue VP - the idea of open-source investment collaboration was just getting strong roots. We had all grown in this way, there were miles to go. The only way to continue was of course to adopt Guidelines that ensure checks and balances, and get Admin to enforce them. And adopt a Code of Conduct for ourselves in the true letter & spirit of SEBI Guidelines - refrain from writing (read advertising) when you are transacting buying and even selling - it cuts both ways!

The other option - total freedom: VP closing down??
That is the stark reality. That is the gravity of the matter, however much we try to wish that away

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Just want to add
Consider also the implications of free-format writing in our digital world where whatever you post here at VP is picked up by search engines, 5000-6000 emails go out every week, other sites like (fake) rakesh-jhunjhunwaala sites and others pick up the posts and advertise!

So actually Admin (though harshly sometimes) is probably doing us all a favour by preventing free-format but potentially damaging posts from getting wider circulation (and archived forever for posterity) and protecting each of our individual digital reputation and audit trail. Think the implications of the manner of a “Transient Multibagger” post (like this one) floating all around that gets traced back to you.

We all are responsible for our own individual digital reputation getting built up post, by post.
We all need to be very very careful of what we post, how we post, for our own sake - forget VP reputation if you like.

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everyone seems to have a view and at times everyone sounds right. Let me add my 0.5 cents here (I know that it VP maturity index, that is all I am worth !!). I think, @subashnayak_19 has been given a prompt rejoinder and that is a fair ask since he is veteran, who has made significant contribution. That said, converting this tag line to what it is now is probably stretching the point. My simple addition - if one says that he or she is not qualified to write about the risks since they are not veterans of this industry, then the opinion must be respected. afterall, this forum is for discussing it further. (Agreed that it has to be in the right section but it is a simple move by the admin)…keep it coming Subash …

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Pleasantly surprised by so many requests/hope that I shall continue to post about new ideas here even after the treatment Kellton thread got. Frankly speaking, my thread is way better than many threads in VP that were created recently. I am not going to create a new thread at vp. I believe way more than finding unbalanced valuation stocks, than posting balanced views in VP.

Regards,
-Subash

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how is your portfolio management strategy subash… earlier i believe it was a concntrated one with a long tail…:smiley: how has it evolved to now ?

its like one minister saying, he is more corrupt than me :stuck_out_tongue:

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The community has expressed it’s high regard for Subash’s previous work (there are many like me too, who haven’t posted but who admire Subash’s previous work).

The community still wants Subash to continue his good work. The onus now lies on Subash. I hope Subash can set the emotions aside and accept the changes at VP. Accepting changes will make admin’s task easy (This is necessary because he/they are doing it for free). If you seniors can do it then only us new folks will gladly follow your footsteps.

With that I would say, let us rest this topic for a bit and let the emotions calm down.

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Hi Guys,

This thread has seen active participation by many, and the issue has been discussed form multiple perspectives. Time has now come for VP Core Team to intervene.

From VP Core Team deliberation on issue (Ayush, Hitesh, Donald, Abhishek, Sandeep), two things are pretty clear

  1. Subash Nayak has been adding value to VP over last few years
  2. His recent conduct is unbecoming of a relatively Senior VP member
    a) he has not complied with the guidelines, instead
    b) he has been openly mocking Admin in particular, and VP Guidelines in general
    c) there is absolutely no sense of identification/belonging/pride with VP Ethos & Culture
    d) there is some merit in the “Advertisement” charge being labeled against those who refuse to properly examine/respond to counter-arguments against one’s “invested” ideas

Above conduct is pretty damaging and sets a bad precedent if others were to follow in Subash’s footsteps. No matter how valuable a member’s past contribution, it comes to nought if there is no respect/identification to the Community Ethos & Culture. Subash’s recent posts are clearly indicating he is not here at VP to learn, share and grow with us, he is here for other things.

VP Core Team is unanimous in recommending a Temporary suspension (30 days extendable to 90 days) of Subash Nayak’s membership.

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This thread has served its purpose and is now being unpinned/closed.

Today VP audience and readership consists of different kinds of folks with possibly different ideas of how to use a platform like VP to the best advantage.

It again bears re-iteration that for those whose primary purpose at VP is to generate/receive workable ideas, BUT
a) cannot write a balanced post - adhering to VP Guidelines
b) cannot respond/examine counter-arguments to one’s invested ideas, and/or
c) do not have the TIME to work further on his/her proposed idea
please DO NOT use the Stocks Opportunity section - which is known for quality/rigour of analysis

Should you want to just POINT to a new idea with growth momentum or turnaround in fortunes, or change in Management, etc and find that there is no existing thread on that, please use the Company Q&A section instead, that is free-format and does not impose any limitations.

We expect everyone to respect/adhere to VP Guidelines - it is for our own good. If you are a responsible member, you will not expect other members/moderators/admin to clean up after you.

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