CCL Products

Hi Arjun,

Quite a bit of speculation on this thread about these points. I wrote to the company and they were prompt to reply on these queries. My questions centred around these 2 points:

  1. Was the list factually true and why it did not contain the name of Mr. Jaipuriar Praveen?
  2. The anomaly pertaining to the remuneration of “Manager - Business Development”.

I received the response on this a few moments ago and here it goes:

Think this clarifies the position quite clearly and reinforces the high corporate governance standards at CCL Products quite clearly. One may argue on incentive design, but this is a fair way of looking at it - employees that bring the most revenue get the highest rewards. Also, the manager wasn’t this highly paid in FY19 (or 4 years before that in the company) but only in FY20, which goes on to show this remuneration reflected his performance in the last financial year.

Strengthens my conviction on CCL Products in the very least. Glad that answers to retail investors are provided without any hiccups and that guesswork can now be put to rest.

Shashank

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In the AR of the company, the plant and machinery’s useful life is mentioned as 25 years. Does that mean there could be sizeable capex coming in next couple of years for the domestic plant?

Another, probably more important question because of the age of the plant, is there possibly some efficiency loss that could happen due to old technology being used? For example:
Lets say a new plant requires 5 MT of coffee beans to produce 2.5 MT of Instant coffee
Is it likely that an old plant (and CCL’s is really old) would require more than 5MT of coffee beans to produce 2.5 MT of instant coffee? If so, how much more
With raw material being ~ 70% of total cost, could this be a source of weakness for the company? (this would probably be applicable only for spray dried capacities)

Evidence why this might be the case:
A 2000MT client (repacker) setup his own facility (spray dried) but came to CCL for the more premium product but not for the bulk variety. There could be 3 reasons why bulk variety was cheaper inhouse: low transportation cost, no import duty, efficient machinery using lesser raw material for same output.

If anyone has thought along these lines, a revert would be helpful!

Disclosure: invested and actively looking for reasons that can contradict investment thesis

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I believe if the plant did routine maintenance on Critical machineries it wouldn’t required capex requirement. But if they want to upgrade the machineries or technologies like fully automation required capex. Usually each machinery has life time if they do maintenance it will be fine works without any efficiency issue…,

Dis invested,

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I recently sold CCL Products and here is my rationale for selling:

I would like to start with framework used in Bharat Shah’s book, ‘Of Long-Term Value & Wealth Creation From Equity Investing’ for opportunity size using size of fish and pond as example to fit in CCL Products (India) Ltd.

There are four categories for opportunity size:

Large Fish in a Large Pond: This is the most desirable situation as there are plenty of resources for the fish to growth and being a big fish it also has the potential to get maximum resources for itself.

Large Fish in a Small Pond: Here the future growth of the company has a upper limit as it has already become a giant in a small pond.

Small Fish in a Large Pond: This is also a desirable option, if there is no fight for resources between the players.

Small Fish in a Small Pond: This is the worst combination. There are not enough resources available and you being a small fish has a high chance of getting eaten by others.

I feel CCL Products (India) ltd falls into the second category of Large Fish in a Small Pond.

Such companies are perfect for wealth preservation but not for wealth generation. Perhaps this could be the reason why Prof. Sanjay Bakshi might have invested in it. He might handling people’s money who want wealth preservation for 30-40 years.

“Investor of today will not benefit from the profits of the past but only from the profits of the future.” - Warren Buffett

I feel that I was late to the party and was looking at the rear view mirror instead of watching from windshield.

In 2012 & 13 the company had grown by 38% & 29% respectively. Followed by 22% in 2015. But then, that growth never return as their size got much bigger.

Will the previous growth of CCL return back?

“A high growth company rarely goes back to the high growth stage after it starts to slow down on the growth curve.” - Basant Maheshwari

Why exactly I sold CCL Products (India) Ltd ?

The main reason was opportunity size available for this company.

CCL is already a market leader with 10% market share in globally. Coffee industry being very fragment it is very difficult for them to get bigger than this.

In such an industry one does not expect a market share of 50%.

Now if the industry would have been growing at a good rate then CCL would be the first one to get the benefit as being the market leader. But the coffee industry is growing at 2-3% only.

Reason being that there is already over capacity in the industry.

In my initially thesis I had overlooked this point as I had estimated that CCL would still achieve growth from the below points mentioned:

Entry in USA: Demand for instant coffee is 75,000-80,000 ton USA alone and currently CCL is supplying 2000 ton only.

Entry in Switzerland: Large retail businesses in Switzerland don’t depend on one supplier, instead they keep minimum five suppliers with them. Therefore, this provides opportunity for CCL as to be one of the five suppliers.

Growth in India: The consumption of coffee is only 20,000 tons compared to Japan at 35,000 and USA at 80,000 tons. A positive change in consumer lifestyle (specifically driven by western culture) with increasing higher disposable income could increase the coffee consuming in our country.

B2C business: Here I was expecting that, if luck plays out, it could turn out to be a FMCG player like Nestle.

Counter arguments

Taking Market Share Globally?

USA is surely a great coffee consumption market and is huge but majority of that market is fresh and ground coffee.

Only 40% of the US market is addressable where they would face competition from Nestle, Folgers, Kraft Heinz Foods, etc.

They have been trying to enter Switzerland for a very long time and have been facing problems. But they have recently hired new CEO for their subsidiary and started taking few orders.

Now, the first two points can still play out and the company can do well but we must remember the stickiness in the product which I stated as an advantage in my analysis is a double edge sword.

If the product is sticky and there is high switching cost for CCL’s products then it would also be for Nestle and other players. Therefore, taking market share from other player would be much more difficult than any other industry.

Now, I understand that the company does have an economic moat of being the lowest cost producer and has the capability to take away market share but that would take a long time.

Once company had lost a customer who had set up their own plant. Soon after that customer had to return back as CCL’s price was lower than that customer’s cost.

But that customer returned back only for the premium blend and not for the bulk product. Perhaps, fragmentation in this industry is sustainable?

Another vantage point would be coffee prices.

Generally when prices of a commodity hit the lowest level revenues of companies in that field must increase, which is not visible with CCL.

India Story: Next Nestle?

Somewhere deep down I knew that CCL’s B2B business was not growing and even the management was aware of this, which led them to entering into B2C in India.

So, my back up plan was that there B2C business could play out a game changer and become market leader until then they would gain growth throw margin expansion or value added products from B2B.

But I missed a very basic thing here too: Size of Opportunity

Branded business market in India is only of 2000cr. As there are well established players here (Nestle & HUL), if CCL takes 20% market share (with advertising expenditure) it would not contribute much to the revenues. (But it would certainly improve the profit as B2C is a higher margin business)

Building a brand takes years of branding which the competitors have already done.

Second assumption I made here was growth of coffee consumption.

I believed that as there is adoption of western culture, hectic work life, higher disposable income, etc. the demand for coffee would increase.

But I never paid attention to numbers. They tell a different story.

2-3% growth shows that India is tea consuming country and coffee at only 20,000 ton is going to stay there for a long time.

People won’t just suddenly shift to drinking coffee and leave tea which is cheaper and has been go to drink for everyone for ages in India.

Conclusion:

Here is how I think this company’s market cap would turn out to be after 10 years:

CAGR for 10yr Expected Market Cap (Approx)
5% 5,000-6,000cr
8% 7,000-8000cr
10% 8,000-9,000cr
12% 10,00-11,000cr
15% 13,000-14,000

(Exit P/E Multiple of 20)

I would like to end with a quote:

“When growth goes away, equities reduce to a bond. It will be treated like a bond for a while. If the picture deteriorates further, then it will be treated worse than a bond.”- Bharat Shah

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Any idea how many coffee vending machines were setup in the market?
Does any one have the number list of machines comparison with other vendors?

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Hi Arjun,

Many thanks for the great post and clearly articulating your reasons for selling out on this company which according to you seems to be well past its prime growth days and would be a wealth-preserver at best.

Let’s do a thought experiment on this :slight_smile:
The following is just an illustration of the art of the possible and is by no means be referred as a valuation exercise.

The 2 aspects I would beg to differ with you are as follows:

  1. CCL already enjoys a ~10% market share in the global Instant Coffee private label market growing at 7% CAGR and can’t endlessly grow while the market is growing at 2-3% CAGR

My take: CCL as we have seen is constantly innovating into margin accretive products and newer blends, so it is not that difficult is assume a volume CAGR of 5% for CCL in the global IC market, especially when it has strong 20+ years of tie-ups with some strong market-leading companies and supermarkets in EU and the US.

  1. Branded business market in India is only of 2000cr. As there are well-established players here (Nestle & HUL), if CCL takes 20% market share (with advertising expenditure) it would not contribute much to the revenues.

My take: The domestic market is 2000 Cr( IC) + 500 Cr(Filter Coffee in the south) - but more than that what’s important is this pie is growing at 12-15% CAGR with the rise of disposable income, healthy drinking and coffee culture induced by the Starbucks and CCDs of the world. So CCL can continue to grow for a long time even for the much-coveted 10-15% market share (with Nestle & Bru holding on to their coveted leadership)

So back to the thought experiment, how will the future look like.

Another key thing to consider here is the long term potential market cap change from the growth in the branded business. As the B2C part contribution increases, there would be drastic margin improvements (lower A&P spend as % of sales, WC improvements, other economies of scale benefits,…) and hence would be the market perception in attributing the valuation multiples. I am envisaging 10 years hence, markets will attach a much stronger EV/EBITDA multiple to this business with a strong retail pie (~25% of consolidated EBITDA)

Illustrations (12 years into the future!!!)

So as you see in this illustration, there is a strong potential for wealth-creation with wealth being compounded at ~20% (including the dividend yield). It is a long waiting game and that’s why the promoters are so eagerly nibbling the stock at every opportunity.

Happy to hear your thoughts on the same.

Happy Investing!
Rudra Chowdhury

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In the past they have compounded capital nicely and sold the business to TataCoffee. And so far there are no red flags in their corporate behaviour. Worth giving them sometime as long as they remain prudent in capital allocation and not get carried away in brand building.

As a lover of coffee woudn’t switch the brand of coffee and for many it is very sticky to change the brand of coffee/salt/tea/masals etc… as not only the flavour but the quantity also takes lot of time to adjust.
Having said that i have tasted CCL coffee recently , Just got as a promotional item in flipkart . Tried and honestly didnt like the taste . The Powder was very coarse and not finely grained and taste buds didnt like it much either .
While i do see lot of promotions in the few super markets for CCL, it all depends on how much market share they will be able to take from HUL and Nestle.
Even if i have to pay a premium to hul and nestle , i would still do so.
My 2 cents…

Many a times during investment phase, stock price suffers the most. The benefits comes only after the investment phase is over. For CCL Products, B2C is in investment phase (though a small contributor right now) and if we were to draw a comparison with ITC, which was in a long investment phase zone, CCL’s B2C segment would be in similar phase, which would mean reinvestment of margins, lower returns in the initial few years etc. B2C is tough business, but this could turn out to be a good diversification strategy in the long run.

Our “capacity to suffer” in the short term will determine returns in the long term.

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Hey Rudra,

I really liked your perspective. Your valuation method really changed the way I was looking at CCL. But still I have some points for a better discussion:

  1. Let look at the Domestic market as capacity wise:

Currently India consumes 20,000 tons of coffee, Japan at 30-35,000 and USA at 80,000.

Now, if we say that Instant Coffee market consumes grows at 12% for next 10 years the consumption would lead to 80,000 tons (Approx) from 20,000 tons currently, which is where current USA market is.

And wait, when one of our ValuePickr member met the management, they itself said that only 40% of the USA market is addressable which further reduces it to 24,000 tons.

Hence, my belief is quite less.

  1. I feel it might have grown at 12-15% maybe due to a small base number and going forward I doubt that number is going to grow at same rate.

As I highly believe India is Tea consuming nation and switching to Coffee would be like switching religion for some people :joy: (Same goes for coffee lovers!)

The reduction in the grow rate is visible through their annual reports, where in the recent 2019-20 Annual report the rate has fallen from 15 to 8%. But they have written it as a ‘guesstimate’.

But the reason for reduction could be COVID-19.

  1. Lower A&P spend as % of sales - A thought

Well, I agree with you that as B2C would start contributing the number would start getting better but what if Nestle decides to get into losses to maintain its market share?

Being a giant, I think they could afford that. (Just a thought not an argument)

I am still learning how to value businesses and I really liked how you have valued CCL. I would try to understand this and try to inculcate it into my learning.

The points being said, I would like to say that there might be a high possibility that, as I have sold the company these arguments have been formed with some bias of me not accepting my action of selling as a bad decision (Only time will tell whether the decision is right or not).

Hope these points add value to the discussion. :blush:

Regards,
Arjun Badola

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At our office earlier we were using Girnar instant premix coffee since long. About yr back we ordered CCL 3 in 1 instant coffee. Since than we order online even have to paid delivery charges.
Disc: I have small allocation. Indeed stock not moved much hence I have opportunity cost in growing market but would like to wait and watch.

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Hey Arjun,

Thanks for taking the discussion forward. Counter points are most important.
Quick takes on your points from my side.

  1. When we say market growing at 12% per annum it is not only volume but both volume growth and price growth. See why I have considered the domestic market in Cr and not in tonnes. We can assume a 5% volume growth and 7% price growth leading to the 12% CAGR.
    When comparing size of opportunity, absolutes are often irrelevant (Important reading : Factfulness by Hans Rosling), correlate the per capita GDP growth with per capita coffee consumption trends and you might get interesting insights.

  2. The jury is still out on this one if this is Covid induced short term drop or more sustainable. Our lack of coffee drinking as a nation might also have to do with affordability in the past. We are at that per capita inflection point which will trigger a lot of discretionary spends in the future years. In EU for example most prevalent are coffee pod drinking at home which needs costly machines - once this market develops CCL can plan to launch pods locally (highly margin accretive segment)

  3. The key point here is CCL is not out to compete tooth & nail with Nestles & Brus and while the whole market is growing at double-digit the price wars might be not that fierce. From their niche offerings to new producers, everyone is trying to expand the market first. So they will grab the market share more from the supermarkets (private labels in India) first and then from Nestle or Bru.

Hope these help in taking the discussion forward.

Regards,
Rudra Chowdhury

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Hi Rudra,

Here are my views for further discussion…

  1. I did not understand what you meant by price growth of 7%.

If the price of coffee products is increasing, then how can we bring affordability and how will it be different from past trend of less consumption due to high price?
But yes, to counter my first point we can say that there would be raise in income. But I feel personally think it would be a matter of taste rather than affordability (I could be wrong).

  1. Pod industry

I believe that development of pod industry is very far fetched for India. I feel it would take more than a decade as it requires too things. Increase in Per Capita + Development of coffee taste.

Both things will take huge time. I do not which Per Capita figure would be sufficient to say that people would start buying pod machines. If we could get a number of when Pod industry got boomed in developed countries what was the per capita that time, perhaps that would help?

Our nation’s habit is very different compared to other countries. We want huge value for money for the products we purchase to reach a level of countries which you pod machine is a long way to go I feel (More than a decade).

  1. Nestle/Bru vs CCL

I agree, CCL does not have to fight for the leadership position. Just getting below 15% market share would also lead to good returns as your valuation method shows.

Regards,
Arjun Badola

Moneycontrol report on CCL…

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Dear Arjun ,

Thanks for sharing very valuable insights to bring some disconfirming evidences . Also Prof Sanjay Bakshi also reducing his stake as CCL could be a Value trap . As you mentioned may be higher probability for CCL to remain as equity bond with less chance of ruining the capital but at the same time up side potential is low. But we have the optionally of growth in the B2B segment in certain geographies and B2C brand promotion in India. Only in Hindsight we can judge the growth story of CCL. Thank you very much.

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Hello Here… any comment on management remuneration? I feels its quite high… for an example you can refer below snap which I took from Annual report.

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Isn’t there a significant shift already in consumer behavior relating to coffee?
What about the big coffee chains (Starbucks, Cafe Coffe Day, Di Bella, etc.) that are already brewing up the coffee culture/taste to the youth between 18-40s who have higher disposable income? Isn’t this gearing up the next gen to following in their league too?

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Q3 Con Call Notes:

Q3 Impact due to logistic issues-

  • Sales postponed.- 30 to 60 cr. It has not resulted in loss of order to other suppliers as this is a universal issue. Delay is likely to be 1 to 1.5 months.
  • Russian Order- Delay in order. Everything is postponed.
  • Impacting export as well as import.

MEIS -

  • Not clarity of MEIS will impact top line as well as the bottom line.
  • MEIS incentive- 11 cr last quarters - This quarters it is 0. -
  • The accumulated incentive is 28 cr.
  • May be available some in Q4.
  • In next 2/3 quarters likely to realise 28 cr of MEIS incentive. Govt has phased out this incentive from 1 Jan 2021 onwards.
  • If there is no MEIS - this will be included in the customer prices. MEIS incentive is built into the price. As this incentive is stopped, they may rejig prices with customers.
  • Without MEIS, PAT shall not go down further as we are adding new capacities.
  • If MEIS incentive is done away with- CCL is Introducing premium products, small pack. This shall negate the incentive and shall sustain 25 EBITA margin in FY 23 onwards.

General:

  • Min 3 months is required for a customer to replace with another supplier.

  • Able to execute more of small pack order in the current quarter. This is a major source of the increase in revenue.

  • Expansion- India- End of FY21-
    Q1-FY22 commence operation of packing capacity
    Q1- FY22- most of Vietnam work will be completed by Q4. Operations will start.

  • Order book- Not expecting any major hurdle in FY22.

  • Small pack revenue - QoQ increase by 40%.
    Small Pack capacities: When this will go on stream value addition will be more increasing the EBIT margin.

  • India revenue - 9 month- down YOY-

  • 35,000 current capacity- Next year adding 3500 capacity. The aim is to use the utilisation of 80-85%.

  • Company not seeing any pressure on volume and price in Europe.

US Market Response

  • US Response for a premium product - Cold Brew- which is launched in the US. Trader Joe (US Supermarket)has started placing small pack in the shelf. The first one to launch in the US. Very good response and they sign the contract for the next year. As a result of this, CCL is receiving enquires from Europe and another part world.
    The other will take 3 to 5 year to replicate what we have done.
  • Instant coffee is sticky business. Not easy to move customer.
  • We have first-mover advantage and customer have to come to us.
  • Absolute volume is small as we launched last year, but it is growing rapidly.
    -Volume-wise doubled the volume in the last one year itself compared to what we have done in the last 15 year.
  • We will give us extended credit but they are giving us guarantee that no debt. This is the std policy for payment term - 60 days term. This is enabling us to increase volume.
  • Getting more enquires from the US.

Vietnam

  • Dealing with the inadequacy of capacity.
  • Customers are a premium customer.
  • Next year, we will be able to utilised capacity with a better margin.
  • Next year Capacity of 3500. Capacity utilisation of 70-75%. This suggests there is a huge demand for the products from this facility.
  • Next year investment will be lower as a lot of facilities are there.
  • Considering a small pack as the customer are expecting products directly from Vietnam. This will to test the market.

India Branded Business:

  • 70 cr Branded out of 105 cr for 9 months.
  • Encouraging trends in the branded business
  • Entire increase in came from branded business in the domestic market.
  • Upwards guidance for the current year as compared to the start of the year. This is despite no institutional sales.
  • Present in 75,000 outlets.
  • Loss of 1.5 cr. Break-even in the current year. Next year shall be profitable.

Overall there are encouraging sign of US business and domestic branded business. From a loss of 6 cr in FY19, domestic branded business will break even this year and and possibly earn profit next year.

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Hi

Had a question regarding the tax in Q3? They are showing tax % only 16%, is there any reason for this variation in the tax paid between quarters?