Yes, its consolidated in their revenues and profit lines. Please read their ARs, its clearly mentioned there. Also, NED energy is their worse vertical, hasn’t grown at all and consumed a lot of capital and management bandwidth.
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Thanks for sharing. I was unable to find this. Can you share a URL?
hasn’t grown, yet - hence, I guess too good to be true, for now, at least.
However, two recent entries by veteran visionaries - Prashant Jain & Ajay Upadhyaya - the latter known for betting big only in uniquely poised potential domain leaders, makes me wonder if NED is geared up for something special. Or if they’ve seen exponential value in the Hydrogen space alone.
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NED’s revenue/ performance is too small to matter materially for Time Techno. In one of the earlier calls mgmt was very candid in being ready to sell it off at the right price.
@harsh.beria93 has given info from annual reports in all years. For FY23 (latest) can find in pg 171.
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Some information about CNG type IV
The global type 4-cylinder market size was valued at USD 279.31 Million in 2021 and is expected to grow at a CAGR of 7.46% during the forecast period. However, India’s type 4-cylinder market is projected to reach USD 23.11 Million by 2030 at a growth rate of 7.73%
Based on cylinder type, the global type 4-cylinder market is classified into CNG, biogas, hydrogen, and LPG. The CNG segment generated USD 131.50 million in revenue in 2021 and is expected to reach USD 240.24 million by 2030 with a CAGR of 7.11% during the forecast period, 2022-2030. The segment’s growth is attributed to Type 4 CNG Cylinders, typically around 70% weight reduced over Type 1 and 2 Steel cylinders and 5% to 35% weight reduced over Type 3 Aluminum liner-based cylinders because of the presence of lightweight HDPE liner. The Type 4 cylinders have higher Class pressure withstanding capacity when compared with Type 3 cylinders.
Global And India Type 4 Cylinders Market by Ajay Kumar Gupta, ISBN: 978-81-958304-0-4 | NPCS.
- Better Safety: Type-IV CNG cylinders are made of composites, not metal, so they are safer. If they leak, gas escapes slowly through layers, giving a warning and stopping sudden explosions.
- Lighter Weight: These cylinders are much lighter than metal ones. This makes the vehicle lighter, which helps it use less fuel and handle better on the road.
- Strong and Tough: Type-IV cylinders have different wall thicknesses that make them very strong and tough. They can handle high pressure and many refueling cycles without breaking easily.
- Good for the Environment: CNG is cleaner than petrol and diesel, cutting down on pollution. These cylinders help store and use CNG safely, making cars greener.
- Special Materials: The cylinders have a polyethylene liner inside, a composite shell outside, and aluminum flanges. These materials make the cylinders last long and resist rust.
Interesting fact: Refueling: How drivers refuel can affect the life of these cylinders. Bad habits like overfilling can reduce the cylinder’s life by up to 78%, so refueling properly is important.
Note: Above info is more around vehicle CNG cylinders.
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Do you believe time technoplast can be a huge beneficiary of the upcycle seen in gas sector?
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Excellent results from Time techno. The management promise of moderate growth in sales with consistent increase in margins is playing out perfectly. The q1 fy 25 presentation is quite detailed and explains various moving parts of the business.
With the rally in stock prices over past few months, part of the positives is baked in but overall good set of results since past many quarters.
disc: invested.
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Time technoplast is playing out well good part is story is 2-3 year story . Management expects to grow topline by 15% atleast. 7500 cr in 3 years.
Company should be debt free in 2 years this would save good amount of interest cost around 80-100 cr which will add to bottmline
Margin expansion may slowly reflect .
Overall a good story for next 2 years .
3 things management is focussing on
- 15% growth 2. Being debt free 3. Improve ROCE by 2% a year
Some insitituation and HNI interest also lately in stock
Disc - Invested
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Another solid set of nos, with sales growing by 14% and EPS by 41%. They are very confident of maintaining 15%+ sales growth and becoming debt free in next 3 years. Concall notes below
FY25Q1
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Revenue growth of 14% in Q1 (12% in established + 19% in value-added), volume growth of 16%. Targeting 15% growth in next 3-years
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Capex: 39 cr. (18 cr. in established + 21 cr. in value added). Will be ~150 cr./year for next 3-years totaling 450 cr.
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Debt reduced by 38 cr. in Q1. Will become debt-free in 3-years
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Working capital reduced to 100 days and should further reduce to 85-100 days in 3-years
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Middle east divestment proceeds will be realized in 60 days
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Non-core divestment: Realized ~30 cr. and targeting to realize ~60 cr. by end of FY25 totaling to 90 cr. in FY25
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Import: on CIF basis, 60% RMs are imported (mostly from Middle east) and 40% are domestically procured
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Export: only exports LPG composite cylinders, contributes ~2% of overall sales
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International business: manufacturing is mostly done in the respective countries (30% MENA, 50% Southeast Asia, 20% USA)
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MENA: plants in Sharjah, Bahrain, Saudi and Egypt
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Southeast Asia: plants in Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam and Taiwan
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USA: 3-4 plants in Chicago, Austin, IOWA
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Expecting 450 cr. CNG in FY25 (vs 308 cr. in FY24)
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LPG is operating at 90-95% utilization, can do revenues of 230-240 cr. at current state (210 cr. done in FY24)
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CNG cylinders for OEMs: will focus on commercial vehicles, it’s a 2-3 year process
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EBITDA margins in LPG and CNG segments are ~18%
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Solar contributing 10% of their energy which should increase to 30% by FY25 end
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Pipe plants: 4 manufacturing plants, 1 in Silvassa for western region, 2 in South India (one in Hyderabad and second in Gummidipoondi), 1 in Kolkata for east. Business done through 10-15 EPC contractors (e.g. L&T, Indian Home Pipe Voltas, JSW)
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92% business is B2B and 8% is B2C
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NED Energy (based out of Hyderabad) is developing Transparent Container Batteries (TBS; used in railway). Have invested 65 cr. and hoping to reach revenues of 250-300 cr. in 3-years
Disclosure: Invested (sold shares in last-30 days)
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Hi @harsh.beria93 , I have been following your posts quite regularly and very impressed with your picks and analysis. Haven’t seen you selling much. Is your selling on timetechno a portfolio rebalancing act or you see froth in this scrip?
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Time Techno has been a huge winner for me (>10x from the first buy price) resulting in a much higher position size than I am comfortable with. Also, I need to generate cash from investments to fund new ideas. Thats why the selling in past few months.
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The Annual Report confirms what I suspected (see this) – no consolidation / restructuring of overseas businesses is going to happen. All such plans have been given a quiet burial. The Annual Reports of FY22 and FY23 had contained the following paragraphs:
However, the latest Annual Report for FY24 only mentions 50 % divestment of the Middle East business announced earlier. Everything else has been removed:
This is a far cry from the understanding that was conveyed when the restructuring was first announced more than two years ago. The resolution to approve restructuring of the business was put to vote and passed in April / May 2022. At that time, the intent was to invite strategic partners / investors to participate in JV / SPVs while continuing to hold only minority stakes in foreign entities. This would release large resources which could be ploughed back into India, to repay debt, reward shareholders and invest in the domestic businesses. A step-down subsidiary called “Abhi Investment Holdings” was incorporated to hold TTL’s stake in these JVs / SPVs. Ernst & Young was appointed to advise and oversee the process and later, JP Morgan was added to the list. But the restructuring kept getting postponed from one quarter to the next, and then more.
Abhi has disappeared without a trace. It is not mentioned even in Form AOC-1 of Annual Reports for FY23 or FY24, so looks like it was never registered or has been liquidated. JP Morgan / E & Y have gone home, we don’t know what they advised. No JV / SPV has so far been formed, no strategic partner has joined hands with the company. Instead of holding minority stakes as promised, the company announced it is retaining 50 % in the Middle East business and has gone silent on the rest. Even the Middle East transaction, announced on 12th February 2024 is not yet closed. It was expected to be completed in 90 days, and we are in September already.
So even this deal should be considered closed only when they actually show the money.
Essentially, the whole restructuring story is coming to naught. Investors can only expect sale of Rs.100-odd crore worth of non-core assets I think, nothing more. Of course, operational improvements have happened over the last two years and will likely continue, but it is a far cry from what was implied two years ago.
May be the company has legitimate reasons for going back on the restructuring. May be the overseas businesses are doing well, and JPM / E&Y might have advised against selling. But whatever it is, it has not been communicated transparently, we have to read between the lines.
(Disc.: No positions)
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The “overseas divestment” over last 2 years kept getting postponed, didn’t happen & ultimately was dropped I think because of low valuation.
It was explained in Feb conf call that only the small Middle East division will be partly divested, while all other overseas divisions will continue as is.
I myself as shareholder since 2019 was skeptical of selling at low valuation & feel (with perfect hindsight after seeing operational improvements 
touch wood) maybe it’s a good thing overseas restructuring isn’t a priority now.
I think mgmt has its hands full with domestic restructuring, selling unused assets, improving CNG cascade capacity and applications & would be happy if they reduce debt by March 25 as promised (as interest costs would practically get to ~60%).
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The overseas divestment is postponed which has helped. Also, an explanation was provided in the concall itself. So not sure why such hue and cry. Best to track this completely before putting out an incorrect opinion
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It has been clarified multiple times in concalls. As overseas subsidiaries have started performing very well, management doesn’t see the need to divest them at cheaper prices. Without restructuring, they’re able to achieve all there stated goals i.e: capex for value added products, debt reduction and 20% ROCE (They’re on track for all 3)
I do not see any lack of transparency in management communication. We’ve been kept updated throughout.
Maybe I’m biased as it’s my biggest holding and gainer.
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I have myself speculated that they seem to be going back on the promised restructuring - see my post of 21st Feb linked above. But saying that ‘we are looking for better valuation’ or ‘we are not desperate to sell’ is not the same as saying we don’t intend to sell at all. At least that is my interpretation. Every seller says I am not desperate to sell, because saying anything else will weaken his bargaining position. I expect a more unambiguous statement, especially about other regions since only Middle East was clarified. If there is anything more clear cut than this which I have missed, please post it here for information. That will be helpful.
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clear cut is debatable. Coz may be we are clearly biased coz of our position or may be we read and interpreted verbatim and you might be biased in some other way coz never thought that the management is telling the truth.
Also, not sure why we are ignoring the numbers - may be that is the fact we need to look at
PS: more than 5000 stocks - not married to anything. Suggest u the same respectfully
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IMHO @Chandragupta ji has raised irrelevant points. I’ve been thinking about this as well, so there is at least one more person (i.e. me) which thinks that this is worth pondering.
The investment thesis for this company over the past two years (in my view at least) has been combination of 2 things : (a) improved operational performance through value-added products, & (b) debt reduction and capital reallocation through sale of overseas assets.
The second part is equally important for driving up PAT and ROCE by lowering interest costs and reducing working capital requirements. While management has mentioned that overseas assets are performing better, we (or at least I) don’t have concrete numbers on the OPMs for each their overseas geographies compared to their domestic business, to be able to fully understand the merit of their assertions.
Disc: Invested, 10%+ of portfolio at current levels.
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Based on the data presented, promoters have retained their stake, while FIIs and DIIs have increased theirs. Could you clarify why you are considering exiting based on this?
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