Pondy Oxide & Chemicals

Hi Donald,

Please answer a few questions:

Questions are based on assumption that they do Rs 500 cr turnover in 3 years (fromRs 244 cr in FY10).

1). What kind of capital expenditure are they going to incur to increase capacity over next2 years? Or do they already have spare capacity?

Their current Net block is Rs 22 Cr .

2). In addition to capital expenditure they will need to invest in working capitals. FY10 working capital to sales ratio of approx 18.5 % ( Inventory + Debtor - Creditor / Sales). Working capital for 2010 wasapprox Rs 45 Cr.For doing a sales of Rs 500 Cr they will approximately need additional Rs 50 Cr to be invested in working capital (unless they do a Dell :slight_smile: ). Will the working capital to sales deteriorate further from here because of sales mix change?

So total cash they need for next three years is capex + approx Rs 45 Cr on working capital. Assuming capex to be equal to their net block (very bad assumption). They will need approx Rs 77 Cr in cash spending on capex and working capital over next 3 years.

Do you think they will be able to generate enough cash to fund these plans? Or will they go for rasing debt.

Regards

Another important concern we had wanted addressed: (missed this in the summary, how could I:-))

Conflict of interest between POCL & Lohia Metals (the 51% subsidiary, balance with promoter group):

The company told us Lohia Metals also exports Lead metal and had a turnover of 95 Cr in FY10. Lohia Metals operates a lead refining plant, whereas POCL operates a lead smelting plant. Lead smelting is more backward integrated as it can use anything that contains Lead metal in the smelter e.g. lead scrap, battery plates, and ore. Smelting has a slight edge on margins, but only that much. (RM is 80% cost) Ashish Bansal who looks after POCL export marketing and is responsible for building the POCL brand in export markets, also looks after Lohia Metals!

So, why isn’t there a conflict of interest? How does he handle it? Ashsish maintains that this might have been a valid question in the context of a declining market. But in a market where demand far outstrips supply, this isirrelevant. To give us a context, they mentioned they can roughly manufacture 2000 tonnes per month; if they could manufacture 5000 tonnes per month, they could have easily made the sales. And they don’t see the demand slackening for the next 10 years! battery manaufacturers are thriving on auto OEM and replacement market (bigger than OEM), telecom, inverter, railways, defence markets.

I think I hadnt clarified how export contracts are handled with the big battery manufacturers -who might be wanting only POCL brand? How does he get Lohia Metals export contracts?

That is a follow-up question. Also is Lohia Metals exposure also capped at 20% in the spot market and rest are contracts? or is this higher??

Hi YSB

Thanks for coming up with more questions

1). Long term debt (consolidated) is just 1.44 Cr. Shareholder Equity is 30 Cr. So the company is practically debt free. It can raise the necessary funds for future capex by leveraging its balance sheet

2). Lets get a fix on the size of Capex envisaged. Today they are doing about ~2000 tonnes per month. They are considering putting up another modern smelting plant that would do ~4000 tonnes per month.

They did not give me a capex figure envisaged as they are yet to firm up plans. My guess is they will need maybe 30-40 Crs for this expansion. This is double the existing capacity plus land & building. They have the advantage of in-house design and fabrication of many critical components, apart from the furnace (and 1 more equipment, forget the name) almost everything else I saw at the plant is in-house fabricated, the company claimed. POCL maintains that their cost of a plant works out half of what competitors can put up (including biggies like Exide).

30-40 Crs will probably be spread out over 2 years, and they should be able to easily leverage the balance sheet to fund this. This is a follow-up question for Management, Thanks.

3). Working Capital requirements

I am not an accounting expert, but I think we shouldn’t club working capital and long term loans together. Working Capital funds is drawn from cash credit facilities and keep getting adjusted against accruals - the cash conversion cycle (debtor+inventory-payables) is 84 days. Export orders are all backed by LCs, so the banks are okay to lend against orders confirmed against LCs.

The higher working capital requirement is because ofthesales mix change towards exports. The company maintains itwill not worsen from here but stay around these levels.

I wish we had among the forum members some accounting expert/CA to look closely at these and educate us on implications -we might be missing. Anyone??

-Donald

(fromRs

1). next2

2). wasapprox Rs 45 Cr.For :))

I agree with Conservative investor here,there are significant risks here & i can’t find much margin for safety here. We seriously need more skeptical people :). Here are a few concerns:

1). First of all this business is burning cash and added to that it is capital intensive. CFO has been negative for the past 4 years(except 2008) . Also Capex has been quite high & hence its no surprise that its been piling on debt. Big negative for me for a Microcap company, enough to take a pass.

2). I can’t understand why the company seems to be incurring capex when it has poor capacity utilization for Metal oxides is 33% & 51 % for Metals. Only Plastic additives has around 90% capacity utilization

3). I am not quite sure why they call it Working capital loans and club it into long term debt. They seem to be paying normal levels of interest anyway & i see no reason to treat this debt differently. For Fy2010 WC was already = 69Crs(CA -CL) then what is the additional 30cr for ??

4). Promoter holding is one the lower side & i am not sure have they pledged shares to raise debt??

5). I am a bit confused as to how the Consolidated results have been prepared. The Net profit is around 12crs whereas it should actually be around 9 crs(because we take only 50% of Lohia Metals’s profit) . if that is indeed the case then the stock is neither cheap.

Please all, we can be mislead by the P/E in case of highly leveraged companies. The EV/EBIT comes to around 5-6 which is good but not outright cheap like a P/E of <3 . So apart from valuation and dividend yield i don’t see any thing that make me jump at it. We still have debt free companies or better leveraged companies than POCL at 4+ div yield i don’t see any reason to pick this up. FOr a commodity company the only narrow moat we can have is being the low cost producer, which i doubt POCL is given that RM is as high as 80% of sales. SO if lead prices crash , it has low margins & high debt, a recipe for disaster.

Pondy Oxides has got listed on NSE and can be traded on NSE from today Oct 1 :PONDYOXIDE

This might get the stock more visibility?

Let me share my thinking here below points raised (in italics):

Welcome more debate. Please raise specific rsiks. This is turning out to be a good discussion.

:)).

1).

Capex figures (consolidated) for this company 2005-2010.0.01 3.12 8.49 3.82 14.46 9.58. Capex/Sales__0.01% 3.55% 6.95% 1.96% 8.26% 4.14%

__Capex/Sales has figured between 4-8%. This is not high by any standards. This is a manufacturing business, remember. Yes there is a problem with operating cash flows, the record is much better on the standalone POCL business, with negative oper cashflow only in 2010. then again it is always changes in working capital being huge, which is the culprit, not Capex. The debt taken (short-term) is to meet working capital for 53 Cr (see Schedule 3 page 56). Long term debt is 1.44 Cr

2).

_This is a question for Donald to update on what are the reasons behind low utilisation__cited by__Management._Think he had this in his list of questions.

3).

Yes working capital was 69 Cr for FY10. What additional 30 Cr are you referring to. Total debt for FY10 was 60.27 Cr. Interest cost/Debt is ~11% which is not high.

4).

Low Promoter holding is a concern.

They have not pledged any shares. The easiest way to find this out is to check the latest quarterly results Link: http://www.bseindia.com/xml-data/corpfiling/AttachHis/Pondy_Oxides_&_Chemicals_Ltd_120710_Rst.pdf announcement, where this needs to be declared.

5).

This is a good question. Again this is for Donald to get clarified. Btw where did you get Lohia Metals PAT for FY2010 to know consolidated profit should be 9 Cc??

<3 . So apart from valuation and dividend yield i don’t see any thing that make me jump at it. We still have debt free companies or better leveraged companies than POCL at 4+ div yield i don’t see any reason to pick this up. FOr a commodity company the only narrow moat we can have is being the low cost producer, which i doubt POCL is given that RM is as high as 80% of sales. SO if lead prices crash , it has low margins & high debt, a recipe for disaster.

Perhaps you are missing the overall picture here. No doubt there are risks, but rewards wont come unless you are able to weigh the odds in favour (and against).

On most valuations measures it is cheap PE, BV, P/S and Dividend Yield, except for EV/EBIT. Its cost of capital is 11%, Return on Capital is over 24%. It probably should quote at 50 for fair value to be reached. If the turnaround is genuinely based on improved RM volatility risk management (and FY10 gives us indications they are on the right track) there is great promise…because of the growth…Q2 and Q3 results will confirm or negate this.

Do we know something that the market has not yet appreciated? Perhaps the RM risk management with LME based pricing (as also brought out by HDFC securities in their report) leading to much lower vulnerability on that front.

In the face of strong growth, the downside risks are limited. there is good value in plant, machinery, land & buildings. Debt is low (not high), working capital cash credit is short-term loans adjusted continually against accruals, which at 42 days of debtors is not bad again. ( I am no CA, if you guys know any CA, please ask him to comment on the implications.) unlike a Term loan where the interest rate starts ticking once disbursed, cash credit interest is levied on the amounts drawn and keeps getting adjusted against accruals, if i get less business, I will need less working capital, and incur less costs. Lower working capital requirements are always better, but short-term loans cant be looked at in the same way as Long term loans.

Pondy Oxides Management Q&A Sep 23, 2010 )- complete text of discussions updated.

This will help in understanding the business and the company better, and should lead to more refined questions??

Please have a look. Look forward to more comments in dissecting the company and investment-worthiness.

-Donald

Hi YSB & Siddharth,

I believe the things are looking bad caus there has been huge volatility and change in business modelling in last 2 years. I think the ratios should improve by the end of this years and the picture would be clearer.

For a while try looking at their 10 yr track record. This is just a 15 yr old co. In Yr 2000 they had a 20 Cr turnover…this year they are expecting a 250 Cr turnover and would be having a market share of about 8-10%.

Yes, the business is not that it would get fancy PE ratios of say 15-20 times…but yes every business has a value. I have been tracking this company from Rs 25…and stock has again and again provided a lot of valuation gap, IMHO.

Views Invited

Regards,

Ayush

1 Like

Hi Ayush and donald,

Thanks for your efforts in bringing pondy to our notice. the stock has achieved its technical targets of 43-44 as I mentioned in my earlier post.

Now question to be answered is what could be the fair value of this company. Any ideas when profit booking should be initiated because it seems targets are achieved in a very short period of time.

and cheers for both of you.

Hi Hitesh,

Based on the feedback of Donald and Q1 nos, my feel is that the company may very well post an EPS around 7-8 on standalone basis for this year. Optimistically this EPS may be 8+.

Also in next 2-3 years, the company may post some excellent growth.

Hence I feel the potential is much greater.

Regards,

Ayush

The company looks good but I still don’t understand why HDFC Sec had asked to book profits . HDFC had also pulled out gems like Relaxo , Vinati , Astral Poly .

1 Like

Hi Ayush,

I too belive in holding for longer term (2-3 years).

Havesome questions for you:

Assuming that the company is able to raise capital from internal accruals and debt(Rs 40 cr for capex and further Rs 45 Cr for working capital) -

1). What is the possibility that they will be able to more or less sell everything they produce? Are they lowest cost players or do they have some contracts in place or are they the biggest player or is there a demand supply mismatch which will always consumer the small additional capacity?

2). This additional capex - is it targeted towrards only exports?

Regards

Hi YSB,

The battery space is going through very strong growth and in coming future, the usage has to only increase hence there will be more requirement for Lead and lead oxides.

The important thing is - are they that efficient? Going by the discussions etc, it seems they are one of the lowest cost producers. Hence it shouldn’t be a great problem for them.

Regards,

Good question S Paul. Iinquiredon similar lines; also emailed the HDFC analyst but received no response.

What baffles me even more, is they had made all the right conjectures (when the going wasn’t good in 2009) about possibilities of the subsidiary Lohia Metals contributing significantly to bottomline. But when that actually happened, they stopped updates on the company.

What some of my friends have opined is that due to prevailing market conditions of caution (post the debacle) such small microcap stocks no more figure in HDFc coverage list.

-Donald

Hi YSB,

1). Yes, primarily the additional capacity will be for exports. There is also talks with Amara Raja on a dedicated smelting facility for Amara Raja used batteries, in the expanded capacity.

2). There is huge demand supply mismatch. Pondy Oxides Management is on record that if they could produce 5000 tonnes per month, they could easily sell it, currently they are producing ~2000 tonnes per month.

Like Ayush mentioned, Pondy Oxides is like a proxy play on the Lead Acid Battery Industry. You might like to dig in and get us some facts on the lead acid battery industry. We know that both Exide & Amara Raja have gone in/announced big capacity expansions.

Please help dig with your resource(s)…fulness:)

-Donald

Havesome debt(Rs

1).

Exide chalks out Rs 600-cr capacity expansion plan

Taking a cue from the strong demand growth, Exide Industries Ltd has stepped up capital expenditure for capacity addition.

According to available information, the company plans to invest nearly Rs 600-650 crore in increasing capacities in all product ranges in the next two years. Of this, approximately Rs 400 crore will be invested during this fiscal.

aWe have drawn up investment (Rs 400 crore) plans for the year to enhance capacities across the board in all product categories. A new two-wheeler battery manufacturing facility is being set up at Ahmednagar, Maharashtra, at a total investment of Rs 80 crore. The plant will be operational in August. Overall, the investment would enhance our capacities to manufacture four-wheeler batteries by 28 per cent and motor-cycle batteries by 60 per cent during 2010-11,a Managing Director and CEO, Mr T.V. Ramanathan, told newspersons on the sidelines of the annual general meeting here Wednesday.

aWe are also planning major capital investments next fiscal,a he added. Though he declined to give details of the company’s investment plans, a company source told Business Line that plans were afoot to spend another Rs 200-250 crore in 2011-12 on capacity addition.

Pondy Oxides is forming a good chart pattern with higher tops and higher bottoms. Currently after posting a recent high of around 44, the stock is consolidating around 39-40 which was earlier top. The earlier resistance zone is now acting as a support zone. On charts there a lot of upside in this stock.

Lead Prices at London Metal Exchange (LME)

http://www.lme.com/lead_graphs.asp

http://www.metalprices.com/FreeSite/metals/pb/pb.asp

)- Lead prices are at highest level in last few months. After the crash of 2008-09 the price has recovered andareat fresh highs since October 2008.

)- Last 10 year high was achieved in October 2007, dropped sharply by end of January 2008 but then again went up sharply in first half of 2008 to drop again in second half of 2008. From peak of Oct 2007 to trough of Nov 2008 it lost 60-70 % of its value. Since first half of 2009 it has recovered nicely but is still far away from its peak of 2007.

Lead Inventory at LME

)- Since early 2009 inventory is running at its peak level in LME. LME stores inventory for commodities.

)- Except for Copper inventory levels stored at LME are running at high levels as compared to Oct 2008 for lot of metals.

)- Despite the increase in inventory, prices have increased for Zinc and Lead.

)- In last two years higher proportion of inventory at LME for various metals is blocked in Forward contracts (Called as inventory financing). This inventory blocked in forward contracts is not available for spot markets. This might be one reason for prices to go up despite inventory increase. How much of Lead and Zinc inventory is blocked in this invnetory financing? I dont know.

)- One of the reason for increased proprtion of inventory financingcould be-Warehouse rent and interest rates are running at historical lows.

)- Another reason could be the expectation that future prices are going to be much higher than current prices because of rampant inflation, after monetary easing,expected by some doom sayers.

)- Zinc and Lead go hand in hand as they have the same alloy (Can somebody confirm this??)

Lead Demand and Supply

)- Majority of demand is from battery. In India demand for battery is driven by recent boom in Auto industry. Domestic demand is very robust just like our economy.

)- Hindustan Zinc (Sterlite group) is the biggest player in Zinc and Lead production. It has plans to expand its production over next 2-3 years. I think it is amongst top 5 producers of zinc and lead in world (Somebody confirm this??) and going by its plans it might as well end up in top 3 players in another3-4 years.

-Somebody please read more about Hindustan Zinc and enlighten the forum.

Pondy Oxide

**)- **Risk to pondy oxide lies in sudden price drops. As Ayush told on Sunflag post, companies keep inventory (alloy for zinc and lead in this case) for certain period and have to incur inventory losses if the price of end product (which is lead metal) and thus the raw materialdrops sharply. Pondy being a small company with tight liquidity situation (as is evident from very high working capital loans) may not keep high levels of raw material inventory. Can anybody throw some light on their raw material purchases etc.

)- Sudden price drop can come either if the demand slows down suddenly or if the commodity bubble burst.

)- Domestic demand is unlikely to see a sudden drop in another one year.

)- Dont know much about international demand but clearly it is more volatile than domestic demand. And this was precisely why i wanted to know whether the new capacity is for exports or domestic demand in my last post on pondy oxide. As the new capacity is for exports, it is likely to be more volatile capacity utilization. This has to be read with reference to management’s claim (as said by Donald) that they can sell twice as much as they are producing now.

)- International demand supply scenario can also be influenced by inventory blocked at LME for forward contracts. This can always be a hangover on the metal prices. As i said earlier i do not know how much of such blocked inventory is there for lead. But if it is large and this inventory is released in spot market then prices will crash. Possibility of such scneario is low at the moment. It can only happen when the commodity bubble bursts and at the moment there are no signs of it. But as all of us know that when bubble bursts everybody is taken by surprise.

)- Keep watching China. All commodities are directly related to consumption in China. Recently it increased interest rates which took everybody by surprise. First day commodity prices went down but there are no signs of any beginning of downward trend after that.

)- For me another risk is the capital allocation for next 2-3 years. 40 Cr capex plus 45 Cr working capital. Approx 80 cr cash is needed. It needs a superb execution from management. Scope for error is very low.

)- Valuations are attractive but as Ayush says value differs from person to person :slight_smile:

Iinquiredon

The company looks good but I still don’t understand why HDFC Sec had asked to book profits . HDFC had also pulled out gems like Relaxo , Vinati , Astral Poly .

Yes Donald ,

I sent an email too but there was no response from them .

I am very new to investing and may seem funny . I had a small investment in this stock bought at lower levels and sold out when they recommended . Thanks to the previous discussions , it has taught me quite a lot .

Did by any chance the analysts think that there will be another major fall in the markets like the crisis we had seen some time back ? In any case you can never print your way out of trouble . I don’t doubt the quality of theirassessmentas they bring out gems time and again and again . Did they brace for a big slide then ?

Hi Paul

My limited experience to take the facts from the broker reports, assimilate from all sources you can, but take the valuation decision on my own!

Like the Guru says, valuation is not a complex exercise. If there is compelling value, it will be so self-evident, you will not need complex models -the value will scream at you. Pondy Oxides at 30 was screaming value, wasn’t??

theirassessmentas