Nesco

Both aspects are true: Property / Real estate ‘will suffer’ and ‘will not suffer’ as well!

’will suffer’ because - perception / sentiment is bigger than reality. so the first reaction of the potential tenants, consultants, investors and every one associated will be to go in a ‘hold mode’. and since stock market are discounting machines, they would show reaction of this sentiment by way of draw-down in stock price.

’will not suffer’ because - eventually, commercial office space has its value - be it data security, identity, not all works can be sent to home (there are many social, psychological, physical space concerns), and not to forget the importance of collaborative environment - and thus it will slowly gain it’s importance back. May be moderate rental management for few months need to be done, may be rentals will not go up for some time, but the one’s who will suffer will be small / B grade commercial office space buildings; better tenants will get aggregated at better buildings, for reasons of better identity, security and sanitation controls and competitive rentals. Plus, the overall social distancing norms, especially norms of the MNC, will increase the ‘per sq ft per person’ requirement from current average norms of ‘80-100 sq ft per person’ to say a 10-15% more. So, eventually it will all balance out. . . . In same way, exhibition will crawl back too; as there’s no way to do exhibitions and trade conferences online, be it for industrial goods or be it consulting seminars; interaction / networking / demonstration / touch & feel can only and only happen in physical world! . . . Likewise, food and catering too will come along.

. . . And not to forget that RE automatically adjusts to interest rates and inflation. with dropping interest rates, and in effect the rising of cap rates, the lost value will get added back to overall asset value.

BUT, what will surely suffer is shared economy - co living, co working and all!

so, in sum, let market beat down the price as NESCO’s business income is going to surely suffer for next two quarters - but this will be opportunity to make most of the crisis!. . . if one believes in story then, NESCO is surely a proxy RE investment to enjoy gradual gain over the years to come!

. . . at 360 - 400 level (assuming nil revenue from BEC and food for 2 quarters), i feel its equivalent to investing in under-construction office or shop that normally smaller investors do; and atop it you get prudent management, experience, quality tenant and all; and all this without any headache of property management, broker’s fee, registration stamp duty, tenant scouting etc. plus the optionalities of empty land / future hotel / more IT buildings and large cash / investments reserves!

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. . . so, the debate is on:

Opposing View:

For View:

Mixed View:

Further, A chat with my brother - who is Partner for Cyber Security (& risk management) at one of the top 4 consulting firms - and he says:

  • 90% of their 12000 employees, across all levels, are working from home at satisfactory levels.
  • Going forward they expect to see an avg 70% Work From Home for across the sector - be it software development, BPO, strategy, consulting, etc
  • there are no real limitations felt in terms of the need for a physical collaborative environment; those things are comfortably getting managed over web calls
  • Already technologies are available and those are proving efficient for WFH and interaction between teams and co-working
  • Even during the lock-down, they have comfortably earned the new business and the clients are satisfied with the security and proprietory / IP concerns
  • for non-work reasons too the practices are being evolved - such as Friday casual fun chats between team
  • The industry is already open to the idea of employees allowed to do multiple jobs and log-in work is done on basis of hours engaged
  • they surely expect to prune their physical office spaces going forwards
  • Above all is making sense for these companies as it will ‘increase time efficiency’ and ‘reduce the cost to company/salaries’

So, the debate now seems like this:

Negatives: The emerging real “possibilities” of significant dislocations, such as:

  1. Drop or stagnation in absorption, which could lead to moderation in rentals
  2. Consolidation of office spaces

Positives: The post-COVID counter-positive aspects as expected, such as:

  1. Social distancing requiring the need for higher sq ft per person.
  2. Drop in the supply of office space vis-a-vis future demand due to projects that may not get completed due to lack of funds/leverage at the developer’s end
  3. Negatives of WFH - control on the employees, data security, backlash from employees owning to stress on the personal home environment, and challenges in work-life balance.
  4. Increasing in RE requirement in form of bigger houses (for WFH) or scope for newer avenues of retail/entertainment etc (Post-COVID) for socializing.

so, it remains to be seen which way we go; it’s a close wait-n-watch game!

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Thanks @gardner for some well thought out scenarios. Your being from the real estate industry and plus some insights that you’ve got from the consulting industry nicely put into perspective what the possibilities might be.

Here is the latest update from the management (courtesy: Nirmal Bang). It seems things are okay for now. Slowdown in business is imminent, however the valuations having cooled down still makes this a great investment opportunity (imho of course).

NESCO–Management-Meet-Update–12-May-2020.pdf (398.4 KB)

Disc: invested and increasing stake.

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thanks for your kind words! . . but am no expert; am just trying to put 2 and 2 together!

I read the report!. . thanks for sharing. . . see we all on this forum who have been here for a while know the quality of company; I won’t pay much attention to Nirmal bang reports - On 24 march they said they don’t expect many issues and projected only a 6% cut. . . today, they are saying we spoke to management, and let’s take a possibility of price being 475!! (with zero earnings from BEC and Food). . . such a wild swing in estimates… . as an analyst we expect indications to be given much prior in the curve, not after the event has happened.! . …

See, there’s never smoke without fire; try to read in-between lines of comments by management:

  1. “there have been minor hiccups in the closure of certain ongoing deals”**
  2. “The management mentioned that there is talk to relax the escalation clause for certain years going forward”
  3. “there is no clarification from the Maharashtra government authorities regarding the duration for which the BEC has been converted into a quarantine center.”

. . . of course, management will say things mildly; but just, think what can be more grave for sentiments on this counter than having to listen to that:
(1) . . . we won’t get paid for quarantine zone
(2) . . . can’t say about BEC business yet, Deals are not closing,
(3) . . . existing tenants may want relaxation in rental escalation!

. . . having said so, I think it’s a good stock, good management, good assets, good business; not a high momentum counter; rather a sure and steady slow compounder worth holding on if you have; or add if you don’t have! it’s proxy real estate investment, without the headaches as I shared in one of my posts above!!

. . . we need not get spooked as yet, but things can get slow here!! i feel, that neither it will run up in any hurry, neither it will go down in quick time; minus the BEC and Food Biz it’s a real estate play; and RE takes its time and pace in change of sentiments; let things pan out. . . all in all, we had already factored all issues as we know today, and around 400-420 looks fair and safe!

Disclaimer: only watching; never invested. will surely buy if at all markets go deeper to new lows; I am really hoping to see 360 levels; will initiate buy there!

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Videos about Quarantine zone set-up at BEC / NESCO:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQi3T00ma-M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRHtzTIKklU

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… and some news developing on the commercial Real Estate front, as quoted from “Economic Times”:

Cognizant recently transported some 70,000 desktops to its staff working from home and may be now looking to give up the commercial space occupied by these employees.

Deloitte, PwC, KPMG, EY, Accenture and Cognizant are analysing their real estate strategy to look at ways to substantially reduce rental costs. These companies say that even when they open up post lockdown, about 25-50% of their executives will continue to work from home, directly impacting their need for office space

The big four consultants and other professional services companies like BDO and Mazars may let go of half a million sq ft of office space by June end, say real estate industry executives. This will be over and above postponing negotiations for more office space.

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If anyone is listening to concalls of companies for this quarter; almost everyone is hinting that they are surprised to see that WFH can actually work and are looking to make it permanent for atleast some level of workforce going forward.

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Nesco 19.05.20.pdf (7.4 MB) Q4 results for Nesco

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Management interview with CNBC awaaz

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thanks for sharing!

Hereby, putting on record, comments by management:
.
.
.
BEC:

  • 5 halls given for COVID quarantine zone
  • can’t say for how long; will depend on progress/retraction of disease
  • can’t say for sure if they will be paid any rent by Maharashtra govt; the management has initiated talks for it, and are hoping something will be given by govt.
  • all exhibitions for Q1 and Q2 i.e. Till September stand canceled for now (and may happen next year)

IT Building 4:

  • 75% leasing done
  • no major rental recovery issues so far
  • But expect some negotiation/deferment from existing clients; are open to accommodate such requests
  • And the talks for fresh leasing have paused for now

Indabrator:

  • Is operational, but management did not clarify at what capacity or if any issues due to COVID

Food:

  • Management says, the food biz is on (but did not clarify how much of it is operational)

Investment Division: (i think the division that manages their funds/cash surpluses)

  • is working fine too
    .
    .
    .

so, based on management’s view, “as of today”, we can assume:

  • 10% drop in IT Revenues (because of some negotiation / some deferment / and say a bit more issues with WeWork as it has 2.3 lac sq ft of total 17 Lacs)
  • 60% drop in BEC revenues (because of cancellations till Sep are confirmed, and may have some after carry-over effect)
  • 20% drop in Indabrator (Although management didn’t say anything; am just guessing because of COVID/lockdown/supply chain slow down etc)
  • 50% drop in Food biz (as to my knowledge it mainly earns 75% revenues from BEC exhibitions; and the rest from Food hall at IT Building; So, with 6 months BEC revenue gone; and lockdown / worried occupants are likely to reduce food spend in IT building too, but not to zero)
  • 10% increase in Investments business (as capital expenses for IT 4 are now over, and they would have new security deposits from IT building’s tenants, and they are good at managing returns, and invest mostly in Debt instruments; considering the drop in Interest rates yields, this division should do well)

So, just to get ball path numbers; factoring the above into revenues, one can expect an overall drop in revenues from INR 474 Cr. (for FY 2020) to INR 339 Cr. (for FY 2021), a drop of -29%.
image

Likewise, one can assume profits because of some fixed costs, may go down by, say 10% more i.e. drop of -32%. Therefore, in value terms can go down from INR 233 Cr. to INR 168 Cr.!! In effect bringing down EPS from 33.18 (FY 2020) to 22.56 (FY 2021)

In sum, given the current environment/sentiment, with no much clarity on forward earnings, at an EPS of 22.56 and say at PE of 15x the share price could see 340-350 levels soon!

. . . just my two pennies! others may disagree!

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I tried to google about Indabrater. didnt get much. Can you please shed some light on this and how it is related to primary rental business of NESCO. Thanks

Navneet, this is one of old divisions of NESCO and is based in Gujarat; it generates about 5% of NESCO’s annual turnover; it’s into fabrication of capital goods / machine parts. you can check NESCO’s website or Annual report to learn more.

some adjustments needed here

  1. IT Park revenue for q4fy20 was @64 cr. if we annualize it comes 256 cr.(10% mark down in rent will be 230 cr. )
  2. IT building 4 may be leased sometime in q3/q2 so some additional revenue may be there.
  3. liquid resource increased from @ 530 cr. q4fy19 to @ 685 cr. q4fy20. with no capex in near term & cashflow of 40-50cr. every quarter q4fy21 liquid resources will be 885cr. (not counting deposit receipts from new tenants of IT Building 4). we can take average of liquid resources @ 785 cr. for fy21 vs 600 cr for fy20. (rise of 30% in investments).

disc: hold small position

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good points! extrapolating Q4 nos and factoring in some additional leasing makes better sense!

so, we can say. . .

  • IT Building @ 230 Cr.
  • BEC @ 75 Cr. (a little more optimism than 64 suggested by me)
  • Indabrator @ 18 Cr.
  • Food @ 22 Cr. (keeping it a bit more optimistic too, also taking in additional leasing expected in a later year)
  • Investment @ 70 Cr. (considering 9% return on investments of 785 Cr that are majorly in Debt and a bit in Equity, which is not in best of momentum)
    .
    .
  • in Sum, a Total of INR 415 Cr. Sales for FY 2021, which is about -13% on the top-line. And considering some fixed costs, profits could be down a bit more, say -15%, effectively yielding a probable FY EPS of 28.20 (down from 33.18) for FY 2021 And again at 14-15x PE, a price of 400-420 seems reasonable!

However, bad nos of the next 2 quarters could play a dampener for scrip’s prices for some time! 350 levels could still get touched!

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This is my first post on valuepickr although I have been passively reading a lot since 5-6 years. Nesco is at an interesting point right now. And depending upon how things plays out, I have stated few possible scenarios:

Against Nesco:

  1. Everyone is talking about WFH, and things are working fine. People have adapted to this but will this work for longer time needs to be seen. When I talk to people I get mixed views, some are happy that commuting time is getting saved but some are complaining that they have gotten bored and waiting for offices to open. For many, WFH is depressing. It also depends on what type of accommodation you live in. For eg: For a bachelor staying with 3 other roommates, WFH may not work as good as expected. For someone with small kids and no caretaker at home, WFH is again challenging. But a couple with no kids or grown up kids and a decent sized house with privacy, WFH could work well. But certainly some percentage of population may opt for WFH going forward so definitely some impact to Nesco and the likes.
  2. Nesco’s business is concentrated in Mumbai. Mumbai, being one of the most affected places in India due to COVID-19 may lose some of its shine going forward. There may be arguments that if India has to grow then it will grow via Mumbai only but people will think of diversifying their offices and factories at various locations. There were lots of jobs due to which lot of people came and due to availability of manpower and resources, many companies did set up their offices creating a sort of loolapalooza effect. Going forward, depending upon how long the situation lasts, employees and employers both will think of moving out. But thinking of similar situations, like the plague in Surat: Everyone knows how well Surat bounced back in just few years.

For Nesco:

  1. Negative sentiment created for office space may stall future investments in the space. New money will not go in these projects. Ongoing projects may get stalled. Even demand is expected to be on lower side. There may be reduction in rental rates all over the industry. But if Nesco will reduce the rentals by say 20% then companies may shift their offices to a high quality set-up like Nesco rather than somewhere else. There will definitely be impetus on space and hygiene factors so something like Nesco stands to win from it.
  2. For India, going forward even to showcase a decent economic activity it has no option but to bring foreign money and investments. These companies will set-up offices in cities like Delhi, Mumbai, Bangalore and the likes. And Nesco may benefit from this. For me this is very important, not only for Nesco but as a country going forward. Not only from national level but also state governments will try to attract foreign companies to invest in India.

Nesco has a very healthy balance sheet and going forward if there are no growth opportunities for the company, the company may start distributing cash as higher dividends. A decent dividend yield may support the stock price.

But I am still confused, Nesco is almost 4% of my folio but I am not 100% convinced to add more at current valuations. May be some more time and we shall have clarity. Either way if valuations fall say 20-25% from here, then we may get valuation comfort and even if the most optimist scenario doesn’t play out but still we may not lose much.

Comments invited.

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Good discussions and insights on the thread. I feel for a company like Nesco - which has very high quality balance sheet, unique asset (land) and potential to grow over longer term, the stock valuation won’t be a function of EPS and PE over coming qtrs. Rather how quickly the things can get back to normal or how bad things can become from here. People would be watching closely if Wework honors the contract going ahead as they seem to be in trouble globally. If some of their key clients start reducing the lease area or stop paying rentals, it will be a negative. Good thing is that it doesn’t seem to have happened till now.

Like someone just mentioned, over longer term if foreign cos are to come to India then Mumbai is the logical city to setup offices. Hence over longer term things should come back also given density of Mumbai and small houses, it may not be that easy or practical to have WFH. But if this trend gets adopted for more than 50% of the workforce by major companies (as being mentioned by biggies) it will surely have impact on rental values and occupancy levels.

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I expect a major slowdown in both the exhibition and the office rental business.

The former because of Covid and any breakthrough in vaccine or treatment of the virus would result in a major bounce back to the old normal.

IMHO, the office rental business is expected to face major disruption. Most companies in the service sector are saying real estate come just after employee cost and they are looking at WFH to ‘rationalize’ expenses.

My bet is on the corporate sector successfully lobbying the government for tax breaks facilitating WFH. Tax-free HRA, exemptions for reimbursement of expenses towards office & communication equipment to those WFH, etc would accelerate the changes in a big way. WFH is already becoming part of employee contracts which are being re-negotiated. So this will be the norm sooner rather than later.

I expect NESCO’s tenants to surrender part of their properties in the coming quarters. We have to see how the management exploits its office buildings going ahead. Maybe server farms could replace offices and warehouses could take the place of future projects in NESCO’s property.

disclosure: holding my entire quantity.

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practical possibilties:

  1. no exhibition business in fy21 given mumbai covid cases are still shooting up.
  2. food biz largely impacted as linked to exhibition biz
  3. IT park4 is 70-80% leased as per mgmt latest interview. so leaving out future expansion , 3 possibilities: a. tenant continue without any changes b. tenant continue with reduce rentals c. tenant leave the premises.
    given that most tenants are large corporate and have done capex on space as well, most may negotiate to reduce rentals and i think nesco may agree to reduce rental for 1 year and then scaling it back. so rental may be down 10-20% either for next 1 year or may be good, if demand lower. apart from that even if some tenant leaves ( we work), sooner or later nesco shall get a tenant as mumbai remains commercial hub with no city coming as competition in near future.
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Hi Ayush! tx for the response! Good perspective indeed that it’s more a game of ‘subjective’ perception of how well things improve in Mumbai than it is for the ‘objective’ perception of numbers and price multiples; however, this view may be true only for one half of Nesco’s businesses i.e. IT Buildings

While IT biz (representing, 50% of revenue) will reflect sentiments/improvements in Mumbai situation, the BEC Business + Food Business (which, majorly depends on exhibition participants, and less on IT Building occupants), put together contribute a good 35% to the turnover, will be governed by “non-local sentiments” and their revival will primarily be a function of “Pan-India / global sentiments” i.e. corona scare, affecting confidence to travel (across the states / globe), speed of travel (owning to checks en-route), cost of travel (airlines may have to hike prices to stay afloat), hotel stay (fear of hygiene) etc.

Thus, at the moment there are a lot of moving parts! :crossed_fingers:t2:

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