Hitesh portfolio

@A_shah

Astec life is mainly into agrochem as you mentioned and as a company was not going anywhere till 2017. I think somewhere post that, godrej group took over the company. While topline has been growing steadily, company’s net profits had remained stagnant during fy 18 and fy 19 at around 36 crores. In fy 20, q4 fy 20 turned out to be a blocbuster quarter and that gave a fillip to fy 20 numbers. Part of big jump in net profits seen in fy 20 is also attributable to lower tax rates due to corporate tax cuts. Now what we need to be sure is that the kind of growth seen in recent quarters is sustainable. If they do concalls, you can listen to them and try to find out answers or else read the latest annual reports. Nowadays there is strong fancy for most agrochem stocks and part of it has rubbed on to astec as well. With the kind of valuations it is quoting at, it will have to deliver numbers to maintain these kind of valuations going ahead. I personally dont track too closely so not too sure about what the future holds for this company.

Paushak is in a niche business. Because the products are hazardous, few licenses are given for these kind of businesses. March quarter has been a letdown in terms of sales and profits and June quarter may also be affected because of lockdown and all its associated complications. Need to see how it fares for next few quarters. Over the longer term it does look interesting.

Regarding which companies are going to be the fast growers I think there are no easy answers. One has to track quarterly numbers, concalls, annual reports and in short get the hands dirty and only then the answers will be evident.

In a portfolio it will always happen that some stocks will not perform as per expectations or in line with other stocks. Here if the business quality is great and we feel the problems the company is facing are temporary it makes sense to remain invested. But if near to medium term prospects appear bleak then it makes sense to make an exit and get into companies with better prospects. Regarding allocations, I think it depends upon individual comfort levels on how high to take allocations. I have heard that Basant Maheshwari is one guy who sometimes has only 4-5 stocks in his sizable portforlio. He would be okay with it while others like Ayush who holds relatively more diversified portfolio would be okay with higher number of companies.

I am someone who believes in being aggressive when I have figured out that the chips are loaded in my favour and I have clear visibility in terms of business performance and it correlates with stock price movement and strength in stock price. In such situations I dont hold back and bet big and try to ride the momentum in business and stock price. But such situations and such clarity happen once in 2-3 years and that is the time when I try to go for the fences. But this thing comes naturally to me and I often have to control myself in terms of allocation. Whereas some fellow investors who I talk to are surprised and feel uncomfortable holding such concentrated bets. For me too these are short to medium term pheonomena and not the norm. After this thing gets over I try to get back to the regular allocations which I follow most of the times.

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Hi Hitesh bhai…

I have been on this forum for a long time now. I have generally been investing in consumer facing FMCG, Consumer durables, private sector banks etc.

Off late, I have started investing in Pharma.( this was a move, that I forced onto myself as my ability to quantify risks in the COVID disrupted world wrt financial institutions went for a toss )

I have been trying to learn about various aspects of Pharma business.

I have a few querries that I want to ask you since you have been active in this space for quite some time now.

Most querries are wrt generic players.

So…here I go -

Lets say…most branded formulation / generic players ( like Ajanta, Alkem, Cipla etc )…make 100s of formulations. However, their in house manufacturing of APIs is very limited, as it is cumbersome, capital and labour intensive. They also outsource a number of their formulations. ( correct me if I am wrong ).

Does that mean that these companies are just front end Marketing companies with added compliance and quality control issues with drug regulators???

How and why is it that a single formulation plant churns out so many different formulations??? Is the process of churning out a formualtion from an API so easy ???

How is it that some companies dont have the capacity to readily manufacture a formulation, but still gets a USFDA approval??? ( correct me if I am wrong ) And later they decide weather to launch a drug or not depending on the amount of juice in the opportunity.

Compliance issues aside ( which is an entry barrier of sorts ) , what else separates these companies from rampant competition ???

China, over the last 20 yrs became an API powerhouse. What stopped them from becoming a generic powerhouse ???

If we do not get the API industry back to India ( atleast to some extent ), and suppose there was no global backlash against China due COVID, isnt it a fair assumption that they would have turned the tables on us on formulations also ( over a perioiod of time ).

Except for front end marketting, what separates generic players ???

India is a branded generic mkt. However, if India were to become a pure generic mkt, wont the Industry loose most of its pricing power ???

Although, I have made small investments in a lot of generic companies ( so that I get serious and study hard ), these questions keep coming to my mind.

Basically, what will make the Indian generic players to churn out descent profits in the future ??? ( not counting complex generics, biosimilars here …sepecially for the midcap guys )

It will be great to hear from you about some or all of these.

Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Ranvir Dehal

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@ranvir

Coming to the queries on pharma space,

First if all, lets divide pharma space into domestic and exports.

Domestic prescription market is a highly fragmented market populated by pure generic players, branded players, and regional small players of the mom and pop variety of players. The branded segment rules the roost since many years and I don’t see the situation changing soon. The govt in its populist mode often makes noises about generic drugs and affordable drugs etc. But quality standards for these generic drug manufacturers are not strict enough and hence doctors and patients too are not too confident about the efficacy of these drugs. I personally have seen patients having no control over their diseases when thay take medications produced by mediocre relatively unknown companies. Same patients when given same molecule produced by a reputed companies respond dramatically. So branded pharma products are here to stay, unless govt does some big changes. Plus the branded formulation market is a big tax contributor and employment generator, so no govt in its right mind can afford to kill this industry.

Coming to the API vs formulation debate, API manufacturing makes sense only if you have huge capacities. Otherwise it does not make economic sense. So most formulation players manufacturing a variety of finished drugs cannot afford to make API for all their formulations. They will pick and choose which API they want to make to be fully backward integrated. For rest it makes sense to outsource.

Making API is not too complicated. It requires good chemistry skills and scale. Whereas formulation manufacturing involves a lot of processes where things can go wrong and hence is not everyone’s cup of tea. Plus it involves big capex and that often is a barrier. If the finished product quality does not meet standards of purity and efficacy, sometimes whole batches of these drugs have to be destroyed.

Among API too, some are easy to manufacture and some are difficult. But by and large its a game of being cost effective and aim is to be one of the lowest cost producer.

To succeed in the regulated markets, one needs compliant facilities, ability to provide drugs in time and in quantities without fail. Plus if a formulation player wants to get approval for a molecule whose API is outsourced, the API player also needs to be compliant to GMP (good manufacturing practices) . Besides these, they need an aggressive front end marketing team, who can promise their end customers compliance, quality and timely delivery of the drugs besides the usual marketing gimmicks.

The Chinese players are good at scale and therefore manufacturing APIs but not in terms of technology and skills to produce finished drugs. They have been trying to woo global formulation players into sharing technology but their distrustful nature is a hindrance to the partners. Plus a lot of policy flip flops by their authorities.

About players not manufacturing any molecule but still be able to market in say usa. These are rare instances. E.g TG therapeutics which got approval for alembic’s (rhizen) research drug umbralisib doesn’t have manufacturing capacity but piggybacks on alembic’s facilities. Getting approval for new drugs requires a special skill set in clinical research and deep pockets and that’s where tg therapeutics is strong.

About what else is needed besides a good front end to succeed in usa, it is compliances, reputation, wide product basket and selection of right products for filing and then getting in time approvals.

US generic space is a crowded and competitive market. To make super profits, read alembic annual reports for past 2-3 years, follow its stock story and listen to its concalls and you will see how companies succeed over a period of time after having started late and being a fringe player for a long time. They failed in the first innings (or say did not play at all) but are one of the best players in the recent innings.

I think I have tried to cover most ground in the pharma sector and most questions have been answered in the process.

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Hi…

Thanks for the detailed reply.

That was helpful.

Personally, I have built up small positions in- Ajanta Pharma, Alembic Pharma, Natco Pharma…amongst the mid cap generic names.

In the API / CDMO / CRAMS space, I have bought small quantities of Divis Labs, Laurus Labs, Syngene and Aarti drugs.

I had these querries wrt the generic guys but was a little more confident about the latter group.

Can u, with your experience and knowledge comment a little on these mid cap generic guys.

Thanks,
Ranvir Dehal

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This is indeed thought provoking. I would not have expected quality from a mediocre company to be so bad. Can u pls let us know if the above example you experienced was in a chronic issue case or in infectives? Thanks!

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Hello Hitesh sir!

I have a question which is not related to any stock/ industry per se. I am sure many of us face the problem created due to “ease of trading”.

Nowadays, it has been extremely quick and easy to trade and thus becomes really hard to stick to a few names, especially nowadays, due to high volatility and bombardment of news related to stock markets.

How does one refrain from trading often?

eg - I bought Maharashtra Scooters at 2500 levels a couple of weeks ago, and it ran up about 25% since then. Now, there is this weird sensation to sell and shift to a “better opportunity”, like say United Spirits.

I am sure your vast knowledge and experience would help us a lot here.

Thanks.

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@Tanishk_Ojha

This frequent trading in long term picks is a frequent problem with a lot of investors. Also depends upon individual temperament.

I think the ideal thing to do is to have an investment thesis written at the beginning of buying the stock. And also mention reasons to sell and follow it strictly. In the investment logic, the focus should be on business performance and not stock performance. If that is followed we will restrict our focus on the business performance and would not tend to get affected too much by the stock price gyrations.

Another thing one can do is to keep adding on the way up and that tends to reduce the propensity to sell because then the mindset is one of buying. I have tried that recently in my position in Laurus labs and it has worked quite well.

And still if things don’t work out well, one could sell only a small portion say 5 to 10% of total holding so that the itch to sell is controlled.

Still another alternative is to have two seperate accounts. One should be dedicated to pure long term investing and the other to investment cum trading.

I have tried to provide possible solutions, some of which I myself have tried and tested and which I found have worked. Hope it helps you as well. :grinning:

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@ranvir

I think in the current market, the biggest returns in the pharma space have been provided by the bulk drugs/API/ CRAMS players. This basked has provided stellar returns within a short period of time.

Next in line are the companies with higher export focus and which have shown or hold the promsie of high growth in exports. Last in the list are the pure play domestic themes though some of these too have moved well.

Among the mdicap generic companies, I like companies with more balanced portfolio with good geographical presence. In that aspect, companies like ajanta, alembic etc fit the bill. Though of late due to huge success in the US generic space, Alembic’s portfolio has tilted heavily towards US.

I think if one is not too sure about what to buy, one might buy a basket of good companies or else go for specialised pharma mutual fund.

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Thanks a lot for the helpful reply sir!

Will start this today itself :smiley:

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[quote=“hitesh2710, post:4967, topic:658”]
Another thing one can do is to keep adding on the way up
[/quote]. Suppose I want to invest 100000 in ABC stock on way up, how you do it. Thanks

"

Sir what is domestic pharma companies.i can’t understand from Google

Although the question is for @hitesh2710

My understanding regarding “ domestic pharma companies ” is companies which have major sales in India & their topline doesn’t have major contribution from export to other countries. If a company has export income of less than 15-20% of total revenue generated can be counted in this basket of Domestic Pharma

@mpbajaj53

Adding on the way up basically means scaling up the holding as the story keeps improving. Say we have an investment thesis and have projected a growth of 15% cagr for next year. But in first quarter itself, company beats estimates and management guides for 25% growth. And price has moved up but not too much to warrant such higher guidance. In such situation, one can add to one’s position.

For guys following technical analysis, there can be various levels at which position can be increased. Say after a prolonged fall there is a bottoming formation like double bottom breakout. So immediately on breakout one can initiate position. After that , say price crosses 200 day moving average and consolidates for a few days. At these levels people tend to increase position. If it still goes up and posts a 52 week high, its another indication to scale up position. And finally stock breakouts out of all time high posted in the past. That is another indication for trend followers to increase position.

Questioni then comes of how to ease out of position. For fundamental guys idea should be to keep riding position (unless allocation goes out of whack, in which case one may reduce holding slightly) till the story keeps looking promising. Or valuations tend to factor in multiple years of growth. (some times this alone is not reason enough to sell out totally, maybe reduce position slightly).

The other way to ride these positions is to look out for signs of froth and frenzy. These things come from observing markets for long periods of time and getting conversant with these signs. In such situations if one is confident about being right, one can consider scaling down position gradually.

There are different ways to bell a cat and one has to be familiar and comfortable with the style in question.

QUESTIONS RELATED TO SHARING OF PORTFOLIO WILL BE DELETED.
I WILL NOT ANSWER PRIVATE MESSAGES AS I LIKE ALL CONVERSATIONS TO GO ON IN THE FORUM.

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Hi Hitesh bhai ,
Alembic pharma is a strong export facing pharma company with good growth drivers and a strong US based team and also has shown improved performance in terms of last few results as also the increasing capex that can have sustainability in the future if things go as per their plan . Promoter holding is also high at 73 % approx and promoters are well known and are also promoters of Paushak . R&D as % of sales is also quite high at 15% perhaps one of the highest in pharma
But the debt is very high at 0.55 (though a lot of companies have high debt during expansion )
Also since most of r&d is self funded as per insightful post by @barathmukhi , why is debt taken to pay dividend ? Is this a red flag or can be ignored in the whole scheme of things ?
I am bad at ignoring things worth ignoring and hence in past have missed many great opportunities.

whether the mgmt can be considered in the same league as Dr reddy and cipla .

Request your views Hiteshbhai on the management and the high debt . Many thanks
Disc - Invested

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Sir,
I read the thread and there was a piece where you had mentioned that in the January of 2018, you were feeling a little uneasy with the stretched valuations and had converted a part of holdings into cash.
Given the current market situation, where NASDAQ is hitting all-time highs and even NIFTY has recovered > 90% from pre-covid levels, what are your views? Is the market being irrational or has Mr. Market already factored everything about to happen? (Is this everything there is to factor in as long as companies report strong q1 fy21 earnings or maybe the picture will become more clear after 1-2 quarters when a clearer picture of NPAs/actual supply chain and demand disruption appears?
Some of the stocks I was tracking for a few weeks have seen steep run-up and therefore I am uncomfortable to invest given the valuations (I missed the bus at the end of march when the crash happened as I’m still very new to the market)

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Hi Hitesh Sir,
Whats your view on Bluedart? With most people, offices at home, there will be need for more and more logistics companies. How do you see Bluedart. Will they be able to take that advantage. Definitely the logistics are going to increase with low people movement.

Hitesh bhai will have a more insightful view bit I shall try to give my 2 cents
Blue dart is a great logistics company , however the performance is not reflecting in its financials which shows they are facing some headwinds due to competition from other logistic couriers as well which is reflecting in its stock price as well .
Earlier it was thought that they would benefit from development of ecommerce , however they couldnt benefit as much due to major ecommerce companies ( that form bulk of ecommerce business like Amazon, flipkart ) have their own couriers
Besides valuation isnt very cheap
Perhaps the prudent thing would be to wait for first signs of momentum
In case you are confident of the tailwinds though I doubt work from home would generate enough tailwinds which ecommerce couldn’t. Though they have their own set customer base who vouch for their speed , the fact is they still do face competition from low charging courier companies

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@hitesh2710,
In my pursuit to find out possible market bottom, some one told me that monitoring a few fundamental indicators can help:

1> 10 years GOI Bond Yield
2> Gold Price
3> Aluminium price
4> Crude oil price
5> Nifty option Implied volatility.

What I am looking for is whether the values are above threshold values for each of the indicators. My question to you is that 1>How good are the above mentioned indicators?
2> To judge the market bottom does all of them have to be above specified threshold values?
3> I find that even if some companies are posting not so good quarterly earnings due to lock down, still market is touching new highs. Is it due to Fed’s role or a bubble formation?
Thanks in Advance!

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Hi Hitesh sir,

I have been silently following and learning from this thread for months now. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts so candidly. Wanted to get your thoughts on the technical aspect of 1 stock/company:

Rationale for Investment: The company is into specialty chemicals and more process oriented than product oriented, focussing on value-added products including APIs. The company has 2.3x capex planned over this year and I expect sales to go up 3x over the next 2-3 years. Profits should go up 3x at least and 4x in the worst case. The company is grossly undervalued at a P/E of 7 and in an industry (specialty chemicals/APIs) which is growing healthily and has great tailwinds due to value migration from China.

Reason for asking for your guidance: This is a BSE SME company meaning that the least amount one can buy is 2000 shares. This makes it difficult to average up or down and I suspect I would not be able to buy this company again this year. Towards this end, I think using technical analysis to time my entry makes sense since this is a large investment with difficulty in averaging up or down.

Work that I have done: I’ve looked at some simple technical indicators like RSI/stochastic/MACD/Volume etc.


From my limited knowledge, the stock is already near being overbought zone, both as per RSI and stochastic. I understand that broader market risks still apply and specially the smaller/illiquid stocks can plummet in value if the broader market nose dives, but wanted to know your thoughts Hitesh sir about the technical aspects of this stock, and whether the stock patterns seem to suggest more strength/upward move in the rest of the year or consolidation. I understand the risks of the investment but wanted to know based on your experience whether you would enter such a stock immediately or wait for more variables to pan out (Q2 results which would be impacted due to lockdown etc).

Thanks

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It is impossible to thank enough Dr Hitesh. गुजरात में सबको भाई बोलते हैं, पर हितेष भाई share मार्किट के भाई हैं। Fantastically complete answer both in fundamental & technical terms. I have asked several people about pyramiding up, most common answer is Buy initial 30% and then add 15 to 20 % whenever you thought appropriate. What to understand from such answers. Thanks Dr saheb now I will be able to pyramid up comfortably. Bonus - how to & when to book profits. Exit I usually found very difficult. Thanks