This is not a comment on any of the posts but just an early morning rant
A few aspects that most financial plans (including the full time investing ones) tend to get wrong
Escalation in medical costs. India will become a country where we will pay first world prices for third world services in general. One of the exceptions is healthcare, the top hospitals here are pretty good. Downside - they will price themselves accordingly. One medical emergency can set people back by a huge amount. Assume 20% p.a. cost escalation here
Escalation in education costs. India is an aspirational society in the upper end and a social benefits driven one at the lower end. The unfortunate reality is that few will end up subsidizing many even in education. It also doesnāt help that most private educational institutions are owned by politically connected folks who will stop at nothing to get their hands on money. Schools hiring bouncers and goons to keep irate parents at bay is already in the news. These institutions will raise prices 25% overnight and not even give you answers why.
If you have to do a calculation to prove to yourself that you are financially independent, you arenāt yet financially independent. When you actually become rich, you will stop caring about money and excel sheet calculations. An ultra rich guy doesnāt deal with people he doesnāt like, even if the deal can net him 5 Cr extra.
The more important point - progress is happiness, the human mind feels at ease when it sees that you are progressing in life. A middle class guy who starts with 0 and retires with 15 Cr feels better about himself than a rich guy who was born with 20 Cr and ended up with 50 Cr. Both the direction and quantum of progress matter. You also need to see progress in various buckets to feel good. As a full time investor your net worth may rise if you do things right but other than your banker no one will know that you have made progress in life. It takes a very independent mind to evaluate yourself objectively when you do not have any validation from society. You cannot show your net worth statement to people who comment behind your back that you are sitting at home and chilling out, especially if you are a man. Cute sounding hobbies cannot replace the grunt work of actually doing something and staying integrated with society. By staying integrated with society, you are actually making a difference to other peopleās lives - you will be treated accordingly.
Most of this FIRE gyan is over rated. Money is just an escape pod, it cannot be the destination by itself. Your mind will get used to the sea view & large bank balance in 6 months and then say - aur kya? This is why many rich folks have perverted hobbies, they cannot keep themselves occupied in meaningful pursuits that keep them motivated.
We need purpose. Without that we are just a number that is living & walking around. Once your time in the world is done, someone else will take that money and do things that you wouldnāt approve of.
This is something Iāve actually faced being a beta FT investor. I feel the Indian society (and maybe the society in general) penalises you for not working especially if you are a man. And being half Sindhi / half Kutchi (both communities being full of uber successful businessmen) doesnāt help at all.
For them even if you have all the wealth in the world, sitting at home and doing nothing or cute hobbies as put it, means you are āuselessā. And one of the reasons Iāve identified for them considering you such is that they donāt really understand the power of living of oneās portfolio. For them wealth and success is defined by hard assets. Now that could be - houses, factories, flash cars or running any business with lots of people (more employees indicate more success) generating 5% in profit after investing crores. You do that and youāll get comments like āketlo saaru kare cheā (look how well he is doing). Sigh!
The Indian psychology is hard wired to be earning money till you are on your deathbed. Keep printing money and be in the rat race for the rest of your life and show off your business, company and designation as that is what you are and what defines you.
Anyways, during my time as a beta FT investor Iāve ignored all of this. Iām like this my life, I live it my way and I donāt owe anybody anything, including an explanation for my life choices. In any case everybody needs to fend for themselves and there is nobody who is going to help you financially when you need it, NOBODY!
And this coming from someone who is just doing this as a beta test due to his circumstances. It is sure as hell going to be interesting when I attempt to do this full time :D.
I completely agree with you.I am 42 years old and had quit working for almost 9 months since last year as I probably dont need the money .. and then was constantly asking myself "now what ? Do i spend the rest of my life doing nothing ? ". the urge of being productive to society is something I did not anticipate.. Luckily for me my industry is flexible and works on contractual basis so easy to get back in and finally I joined back work for 3-4 months again . So maybe a better plan for me is to work less and spend more time with family rather then quit working altogether.
Full time equity investing is the purpose .If not this whole thread is irrelevant .
Important point is Equity investing is not easy and not part time stuff ..
Studying 100s of industry sectors, global macros and 1000 of firms .. tracking their execution progress across quarters does take lot of time
I quit corporate job at age of 42 , 10 years back ..
My annual income at that time through dividends was > 1.5X annual expense .. So really I did not have to work or even focus on investing .. but I chose this career .. because I loved studying new industries .. their drivers of growth , tracking firm execution , betting on good executors and see money multiply
This is what keeps me live and happy .. I donāt give a damn what people will do of my money that is leftover once I die ..
My purpose is enjoy what I am doing .. That is career choice you take when money is not the driving force
If you have this clarity and you are able to execute well, good for you. And happy for you
That might not be the case for most. For most folks full time investing is a difficult path, even if the investing part works well - as is evident from some of the other posts here. My rant is applicable to those who see investing as another way of earning money and living comfortably without having to deal with pressures of a daily job or business. In this era of FIRE glorification many arenāt able to anticipate what they are signing up for. The daily vacuum of being a full time investor will be tough to deal with for those folks.
If we can present the real picture and help people decide for themselves, that would be a job well done.
Full time investing cannot be the purposeā¦just like earning money cannot be the purposeā¦these are just means to an endā¦if you donāt know the āendā then you havenāt thought deep enoughā¦if you think deep answers will emergeā¦clueā¦think of yourself as part of Mother Natureā¦which has given you whatever you wantā¦you canāt just keep taking all the timeā¦you have to contribute backā¦how, when and in what form is up to youā¦so keep looking, keep exploringā¦we canāt be selfish all the timeā¦even to think āI donāt care what someone will do with my money when I am goneā is not rightā¦u r a custodianā¦u need to complete the circle of lifeā¦some figure this out earlyā¦all of itā¦some take timeā¦some donāt do itā¦which one is youā¦you need to decide..for your completeness and for your contribution towards the completeness of Mother Natureā¦sorry this is slightly deepā¦but for tough questions you need to go deep
Just to add to thisāat least in my caseādespite having clarity before making the decision to pursue this full-time (itās been two years now), there are still moments when (a part of) mind resists. It is almost always triggered by an external trigger - like someone saying something or me seeing/reading something.
What has helped me is revisiting the original reasons I made this choiceāmainly the desire to have control over how spend my time and to do what I like (i.e. investing in markets) rather than what I donāt. So I wait for it (mind) to calm down and then ask this is still what it thinks it wants, and if yes, is the purpose getting served. Till now it sees the point & settles down post that. So like with many other things it is another constant battle within the mind.
Money not being an end goal for me is a real thing too (in terms of mind bringing it up frequently). Many people see philanthropy as the answerāand itās a good oneābut for those who donāt find it fully satisfying, perhaps there are even better answers that need to be discovered. There surely would be decent, if not great, answers to this as having money and not knowing what to do with it, is unlikely to be among the toughest problems going around.
I beg to disagree here. I believe that earning money can be a central purpose of life. We all need a purpose to live for, and for some, the pursuit of money gives that purpose of life.
N.B. My view may change with age.
You have really described it in very lucid manner. Points are quite valid.These issues really crop up despite the many positives for full time investor like freedom to stay anywhere in the world, no retirement related issues, freedom from unpleasant behaviour of bosses, fear of downsizing etc.So, one has to see what is best suited for her/him.
very good discussion and thanks everyone to share openly. This will be test if you really passionate in investing anything less you will start to think of purpose etc. There is no one answer everyone should think independently . One thing is sure no matter how big your portfolio size you find reasons to doubt is it enough. The pole keep shifting so you really need to enjoy investing like Shailesh said. Offcourse there will lot of time where you dont act but reading should continue regardless unless you are in trading. Purpose of life is to enjoy this journey and contribute back to your family then Nation and may be world. FIRE etc were invented for people who could not work on their passion citing money as reason. No one will be vacationing forever for sure. There are books written on people whose life was hell as they inherited billions of Dollars. Enjoy the Journey
My two bits about equities as a full time profession. It is not for most people as normal human beings require a social setting and feel the need to interact with others, team effort, appreciation,etc.
This line is a very secluded, self driven vocation mostly meant for people who have the ability to think deep and continuously learn from positive acts as well as mistakes.
Donāt expect anyone to appreciate you or motivate you. You are your own source of inspiration as well as support. You are singly responsible for your own success as well as your own mistakes.
Honestly for a normal person who has led a fulfilling professional work life with appreciation from those surrounding there could be a big void in life.
But then there are others who value independence and are aware of their ability to do much better in life than being stuck in a role subservient to an organization.
This is one profession that allows you to lead life at your own terms. You will have loads of spare time once you have identified your areas of strength. You need to fill the time thatās free with activities and hobbies and also keep exploring newer areas of the market.
Another word of advice is to have a separate office especially if there are other people at home. This definitely helps with better focus and also helps break monotony.
As far as purpose in life goes make a list of things that you always aspired financially vacations, being generous, cars, properties etc. As you get more proficient keep striking off things done and adding more to your list.
Try to make a difference in peopleās lives by giving in all ways. Satisfaction that you will get will help compensate the loss of recognition received for achievements in the employee rat race.
Again this line is for a very limited set of people. Best wishes to all that decide to tread this lonely path.
Interesting discussions and I think for most FTI (I maybe wrong) the root origin is to either avoid toxicity at work or generate wealth rather than a true realisation or passion for investing. Very few like @kb_snn would have that clarityā¦.and IMO nothing wrong in not having that clarity or even have any other reasons to pursue it, provided financially well planned & executed.
Again, if a person is able to generate as much wealth via investing part time, full time would not make much of a lifestyle level difference in wealth generation except the other reasons getting fulfilled.
If moving away from toxicity is primary reason, itās not a bad idea to work on removing that toxicity, improving overall work culture where we can and when we can to make any workplace better and people do not leave it just to remove work related toxicity from life.
Reflecting on the points shared here brought to mind this 1-minute Naval Ravikant clip ā his articulation is a delight and perfectly captures the essence of this topic. A must watch!
āFor everybody, thereās something they do that others see as work but is effortless for them. Youād be doing it for fun when theyāre doing it for work. Eventually, theyāll tire out when the results arenāt there and give up. So, the people who succeed are those who are irrationally passionate about something.ā
These lines resonated with my thoughts. A full time investor can do things independently without worrying about higher authorities to whom you will report in a Job!!
You have lot of time to think deeply about your own life priorities and goals, and also hobbies which has become very difficult to follow in 10-12 hour daily job with tensions over week-ends as well.
It is indeed a lonely journey and you need to appreciate what you get and learn lonely rather than continuing the same path. It could be tough for many people.
What percentage of salaried population is working willingly? What percentage of people are really working in the field of their interest? Donāt know about others but crude reality is a person in a private job adds a little value to society apart from paying taxes to serve the nation. Be it an engineer, Program Manager, Director or Vice president, people will always judge you on basis of your assets. I had served as Head APAC in an MNC for an year, your repo remains till you are in office premises. Whole division was shunted out after a year including global head and its a normal course across industries, more experience you gain more vulnerable you are, wanted to work in area of semiconductors but campus job offer received for telecomš, retired from telecom industry last year after 27 years to break the vicious loop. Office politics, pyramid structure, its destiny once you cross 45+. Last week one of my colleague died of cardiac arrest at 51, stressed out at VP level in a small start up.
Life is not about working for others till death or seeking glory in fancy designations, atleast not for me. I would correlate our vedic structure of ashramaās. Bhramcharya, Grahasth Ashram, Vanaprasth and Sanyas Ashram to real meaning of life. First aim is to develop charactor, skills, healthy Mind and body, second aim is to earn a living and enjoying grahasth Ashrama. Third stage is to start contributing to society and live your passion and finally look within yourself for soul satisfaction.
Full time equity investing as a career option is most precious one where, you can finally master your time, not for everyone, one of most disciplined job.
Many individualistic career options can be lonely .. RD scientist , writer , painter , actor etc .. Many of them die unknown without appreciation from world ..
Diifference between these professions and full time investing is that you can evaluate your performance more objectively .. At least you know if you are failing or winning .. That is huge motivator for driving you to work everyday .. So many full-time investor live long vs traders , writers and other artist .. who without validation tend to self doubt and lose their motive to live .
Well I dont see any great investors who were part time. As someone said in the thread this business requires a lot of work and dedication which you cannot do with another job that is demanding. most of the jobs are demanding why will some one pay you when you are not 100 % dedicated to your work. Focus and dedication is essential.
Good for you but then a basic math will tell me that at 42, your net worth was way beyond what most people even on this thread will even reach at age 60.
If I take a rough conservative estimate for annual expenses of even just 10L, your dividend income at age 42 was in excess of 15L. At roughly 1.5% dividend yield, your approximate corpus at age 42 was in excess of 15 Cr. Well, let alone pursuing equity investing, you can afford to not pursue anything in life
You are right . I have mentioned this my July 2018 post in this thread
Why this is so ..
You become practically unemployable after 2/3 years of being full time investor . + There is no way you can go back to do 9-5 job even if you are offered one .
Impact of your efforts . If you have beat benchmark post tax , post life expense , Unless your own money to manage is big enough it cannot be done .. 2% alpha on 1 crore is 2 lacs and on 10 crores is 20 lacs .. Unless your PF > 10 crores it is better to do job and focus on investing in good MF . This bar changes with your current salary . Higher your current salary .. higher is need for higher AUM and alpha to justify your full time investing
Full Time investing is one way bridge .. choose to climb on it only at right time with full preparedness
