The Tried & the Tested: Quest for the Bluest of the bluechips!

Hi Lalit,

Excellent article on Sun Pharma you pointed to. I am inspired to start a dedicated thread for dissecting Pharma bluechips.

You must have looked at the others like Cipla, Ranbaxy, Dr Reddy’s. We could throw in a promising young player like Glenmark (though it has a different innnovation-led model). Any others you recommend to include - what about a seemingly excellent CRAMS player like Divi’s etc.

Some quick comments will help.

Rgds

Donald

notrecommendingit

thatdifferentiatesSun are-

chasingrespiratory/antibiotics

)-

)- RecentlyappointedTeva Link: Forbes India Magazine - Print

Hi Subbu,

I agree with you on your view on ITC, But i have a different reason tobelieveso.

  1. ~64% of the gross revenue comes from cigarettes.The catch here is “gross”.When we look at Net Revenue the contribution of cigarette drops to less than 50% as the excise duty levied on cigarettes in really high.Over the years the revenue mix has been changing and the contribution of price competitive businesses like food,personal care etc has been increasing.As the price competitive business grows big the underlying economics of the business as a whole may change significantly and the company may not lay golden eggs in years to come as it did in the last 10 years.
  2. The company in its annual report has expressed concerns over the discriminatory taxation on cigarettes which constitutes 20% of tobacco consumption and pays 80% of taxes levied on tobacco products.This discriminatory taxation has also left it handicapped in competing with illegal cigarette industry on the basis of price.Making people switch from other forms of smoking tobacco to cigarette and selling economy products could have served as a high quality source of growth,but this looks almost impossible with the current tax structure.

Hi All,

Acomparison of Nestle and ITC P/E over last 10 years and probable reasons.

AVG. P/E
AVERAGE P/E FY 2003 FY 2004 FY 2005 FY 2006 FY 2007 FY 2008 FY 2009 FY 2010 FY 2011 FY 2012 avarage Total increase
ITC 13.683 15.4888 17.5604 21.1725 29.0785 24.3503 22.112 26.2216 28.8895 30.6497 22.92063 124.00%
NESTLE 29.1115 26.8635 21.3146 28.6407 33.3124 36.0431 35.9551 35.88 44.4404 47.3864 33.89477 62.78%

*The nestle data is for year jan-dec. The data has not been adjusted as a roughapproximation is enough.

Nestle is a better business than ITC the numbers say,so says the market.The market on an average has valued a rupee of Nestle's earning higher than ITC consistently over last 10 years.This is obviously due to the better quality of Nestle's balance sheet and cash flow.Another reason which i stronglybelieve has led to this is thatNestle Generates larger portion of its revenue from consumer monopolies than ITC. Nestle generates 85% of its Net Revenue from consumer monopolies: ~40%necessity(Baby food formula,Milk powder etc) and ~45%mildaddiction or habit(confectioneries,coffee,Noodles),where as ITC generates ~48% of its Net Revenue from consumer monopolyaddiction(cigarette).

1 Like

Great discussions. Some ideas for really long term (30+ years)

  1. ITC should be at top of the list by far. For its main cash cow - Cigarettes, not only there is a huge market but also migration from the unorganized “bidi” segment, with rising urbanization and purchasing power. The way ITC has established brands in domestic space in a short time speaks volumes of their execution capabilities.

  2. United Spirits )- looking at addiction based consumption, premium brands from Diageo, and Indian demographic trends.

3)** HDFC / HDFC Bank** )- no explanation required

  1. Apollo Hospitals )- Healthcare and NOT Big Pharma. Looking at the US market and how the Big pharma giantssuffering, the future of big pharma may undergo a sea change. Healthcare in India has long way to go and has HUGE potential . Add to that retail pharmacy chains.

  2. And a toll bridge -http://fundooprofessor.wordpress.com/2012/10/21/toll-bridge-meaning/

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but then why is it that all educated people tend to smoke, I see it all the time be it students, professionals, even film stars. I think most cigarettes would in fact be sold in cities where literacy levels are higher.

I think at least for next 5-7 years cigarette consumption will continue to go up since even after so many efforts to suppress smoking like printing smoking kills on packs and so many other awareness ads consumption is actually increasing. since majority of new smokers are teens and students and India’s young population going to increase in the next decade, I don’t see the demand reducing. this is unfortunate but I guess india’s young population could be a major growth driver of ITC.

Hey folk,

The following is a snapshot of Dabur India Ltd.Please include this too in the discussion.

Dabur India Ltd.
DABUR INDIA LTD. SALES EBITDA PAT EPA MKTCAP
9 YR CAGR 19.64% 24.12% 25.24% 20.74% 33.02%
5 YR CAGR 22.28% 21.46% 17.89% 9.28% 19.28%
3 YR CAGR 24.84% 20.00% 13.42% 0.93% 23.03%
1 YR GROWTH 29.71% 17.14% 13.42% 10.83% 7.53%
DABUR INDIA LTD. 31-03-2012 31-03-2011 31-03-2010 31-03-2009 31-03-2008 31-03-2007 31-03-2006 31-03-2005 31-03-2004
Financial Leverage 1.63 1.75 1.19 1.28 1.17 1.34 1.22 1.46 1.49
Long Term Debt/Earnings 1.67 1.84 0.35 0.58 0.29 0.56 0.49 0.97 1.17
current liability/earnings 3.25 3.06 2.78 3.25 3.08 2.83 2.70 3.56 4.53
Total liability/Earning 4.91 4.90 3.13 3.83 3.37 3.39 3.19 4.53 5.70
Debt/Equity 0.63 0.75 0.19 0.28 0.16 0.33 0.21 0.41 0.44
Interest Coverage 15.68 24.60 49.33 19.56 23.75 21.59 16.79 15.04 N.A
Working Capital/Sales 12.14% 9.07% 5.00% 4.79% 1.60% 7.99% 1.03% 11.42% 3.05%
Debtor Days 31 9 6 5 12 10 10 3 6
Inventory Days 32 32 13 23 27 25 15 18 21
Cash In/Cash Out Ratio 0.43 0.26 0.12 0.17 0.24 0.25 0.21 0.16 0.19
Gross Margin 47.05% 50.06% 53.74% 49.24% 52.46% 50.51% 56.63% 54.15% 56.00%
EBITDA Margin 17.86% 19.78% 19.33% 17.69% 18.34% 17.87% 16.15% 14.36% 13.31%
Net Margin 12.16% 13.90% 14.73% 13.87% 14.07% 13.81% 11.45% 10.41% 8.43%
Capital Turns 2.32 2.19 4.17 4.44 5.17 3.83 3.61 3.28 4.38
Fixed Asset Turns 3.23 2.73 5.26 5.64 5.64 5.51 3.75 5.25 5.06
Total Asset Turns 1.90 1.68 3.06 2.69 3.29 3.19 3.08 2.83 2.97
RoA 23.08% 23.29% 45.00% 37.27% 46.33% 43.99% 35.30% 29.40% 25.07%
RoE 37.56% 40.87% 53.60% 47.78% 54.07% 59.02% 43.09% 42.81% 37.23%
RoCE 30.25% 30.63% 54.75% 43.43% 55.72% 51.97% 45.77% 36.35% 34.91%
RoIC 30.11% 31.97% 61.71% 62.44% 75.25% 54.54% 46.80% 36.48% 43.74%
Tax Rate 18.52% 19.94% 17.04% 12.67% 13.47% 12.03% 11.79% 11.03% 11.95%

Sales (CAGR) : 1Yr>3Yr>5Yr>10 Yr.

Solvency: the Financial Leverage,long term debt/Earning and Debt/Equity has increased over time suggesting the company has become more leveraged over the period. With current level of earning it can pay off all its liabilities in little over 4 years and 9 months and long term debt in little over 1 and a half years.Interest coverage has remained above comfortable levels but the trend suggests a fall in interest coverage.

Liquidity &Efficiency:In absolute terms the liquidity position of the company is decent.But the trend of Net WC/Sales and cash in/cash out ratio the liquidity position has degraded.The company's efficiency also has worsened.

Gross Margins: The margins have declined over the yearssignificantly (a drop of 900 bps in last 9 years!).

turnover and return ratios: All the turnover & return ratios have worsened over the years.The company has made many acquisitions in the last decade and a study of the various businesses that it has acquired will help us decipher the cause.As of now looking at the current picture the company seems to have become inefficient in utilizing its assets and the returns have fallen.

At first sight the worsening solvency, liquidity, efficiency , declining gross margin, declining turnover and return ratios suggest that probably the company is loosing its competitive advantage.

Some qualitative feature of the business worth noting are as follows:

  1. distribution network: It has a Wide and deep market penetration with 50 Carrying & Forwarding agents, more than 5000 distributors and over 3.4 million retail outlets all over India for its most widely distributed products and 5-5.5 million retail outlets all total.it has high penetration in both urban and rural markets. For its healthcare products, DIL has a reach of 200,000 chemists, ~12,000 vaidyas and 12,000 ayurvedic pharmacies. DIL operates a specialised beauty retail business under the brand âNew Uâ, held under its whollyâowned subsidiary H&B Stores Ltd. As of FY12, the company had 47 stores, with outlets spread across North India and South India.
  2. Types of businesses:The Company derives a significant portion of its revenue from products that have pricing power (products are natural and have the health preposition).These products with pricing power fall in two categories. The first category includes products that have a dominant market share like chavanprash, glucose, herbal digestives, digestive tablets, honey etc. These have built brand loyalty among customers through focus on quality, taste, advertising etc. These brands are synonymous to the products. The second category includes Products like Babur lal tooth paste, Miswak, Babool, Dabur honeitus etc. These due to their product differentiation are perceived to be a different product and this gives them pricing power in an industry which is either largely competitive or is not dominated by the companyâs products.. These products own a piece of the consumerâs mind in one way or the other and whenever the consumer has to buy these products it has to buy it from Dabur. Hence these products have consumer monopoly.
  3. Another point worth noting is the fact that the company derived 47% of its domestic revenue from rural India as compared to 45% last year.

Hi,

Please note FMCG stock specific discussions can now branch off from this parent thread to this FMCG sector specific discussion thread titledFast Moving Consumer Goods (FMCG): Long-term Best Buys?. Please continue to take forward that discussion.

This parent thread can continue to look at Bluechips in general or a specific business that merits further discussion/dissection. If we find other sector specific discussions achieving the desired level of maturity, those can also be branched off to dedicated threads. e.g. the next dedicated sectoral look could be Pharma or Banking!

Rgds

Donald

Donald,

Iactuallyhave limited understanding ofpharma sector, so my picks are Sun/Lupin/Divi as they are the sector leaders. These will be real blue chip companies and opportunity size is still very huge. There may be other good companies (like Cipla/Reddy’s, but never explored them).

The reason I picked the leaders in the sector is based on my previousinvesting experience. I invested in Punj thinking it to be next L&T, but never bought L&T. I bought 3i infotech, but ignored Infy. I would have been better off just sticking to sector leaders, rather thantryingto find the next Infy or L&T. Soinsteadof looking for the next Sun Pharma, I bought Sun Pharma itself.

Ibelievepharmaas a sector will do well as the market cap of the companies is still low compared to market opportunity.

Hi Lalit,

Excellent article on Sun Pharma you pointed to. I am inspired to start a dedicated thread for dissecting Pharma bluechips.

You must have looked at the others like Cipla, Ranbaxy, Dr Reddy’s. We could throw in a promising young player like Glenmark (though it has a different innnovation-led model). Any others you recommend to include - what about a seemingly excellent CRAMS player like Divi’s etc.

Some quick comments will help.

Rgds

Donald

notrecommendingit

thatdifferentiatesSun are-

chasingrespiratory/antibiotics

)-

)- RecentlyappointedTeva

http://forbesindia.com/printcontent/34189 Link: http://forbesindia.com/printcontent/34189

Hi Lalit,

I had a first look at the Consolidated numbers of the others Cipla, Ranbaxy, Dr Reddys, etc over the last decade, and came away a bit disillusioned:(

The numbers tell a different story from what I believed - that is how good these companies were. Perhaps one reason is that all of them tried a hand at inorganic growth and that dented their numbers badly. Dr Reddy’s is slightly better off. Even Sun Pharma’s acquisitions Caraco and Taro both proved tough and difficult - but its profitability and growth never suffered!!

That’s a key takeaway for me - Quality of Sun Pharma Management. Will look at Lupin and Divi’s next.

Comparing Market Cap to Market Opportunity is a new learning for me. I agree Pharma as a sector has a long way to go. Please keep writing in.

Thx

Donald

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Hi,

I have Sun and Lupin in my watch list, not comfortable with valuation at the moment.

Sun has bring in Chairman ( from Israel), who has done lot of acquisitions in his previous company. So future tone for Sun is clear.

try looking at ipca labs as well. It is a company on its way to becoming a blue chip maybe 5 years down the line.

They seem to be doing all the right things and have been growing consistently in terms of sales and profits since ten years.

market cap currently is close to 6200 crores and opportunity size in front of it is huge.

Donald,

The thing I linked about Sun is, their Annual sales are still less compared to Cipla, Lupin, Reddy. This despite having much higher market cap compared to them.

Donald,

Would appreciate if you can decipher your learning about the market cap to market opportunity. How it adds value over Revenue to market opportunity which seems to be a better comparison.

Thanks,

Atul

Hi Guys,

Those interested in diving deeper into Pharma Sector, here is a draft work-in-progress FAQ doc.

Pharma Sector Investor FAQ)- I had created something for me in early 2011, did some quick updates to it, on request from members like Bala.

Hoping to refine this with help from Pharma Focused group - doctors, pharma analysts, pharma industry professionals, and enthusiasts like you & me:)

Please have a look. The idea is to demystify the sector and serve as an initial primer - bring you quickly upto speed on the domain - jargons, market segments, prevalent business models -enabling you to dive deeper:)

Anyone wanting to put your hands up for creating Sector Primers on any other sector? Please put your hands up. It can be collaboratively done at ValuePickr - through selectively assigned view/edit/create/review rights!

We have started on the first one for incremental collaborative editing/refinements.

-Donald

Donald,

I can pitch in for banking and finance sector. Please let me know what I need to do.

Atul

Hi donald,

A few thoughts from my side…

If there is a stock that is growing at a CAGR of over 20% for the last 10 yrs, is a big mid cap to large cap stock, has given10-20 times returns over the last 10 yrs, whose future results and performance are relatively easy to predict in order to make a measured investment descsion, whose RoE has been above 15-20% over all these years, whose corporate governance is impecable, whose dividend yeild is descent, management is shareholder friendly etc etc etc…will it qualify as ‘bluest of the bluechip’???

If yes…how about YES bank, Axis Bank, Karur vysya bank, ICICI bank, ING Vysya bank, INDUS IND bank, city union bank, Hdfc bank etc

What’s more…most of them do not trade at exorbitant valuations unlike their FMCG peers, when markets fall…they also fall unlike their fmcg peers which again gives people to load them up. Since they do not run up to 20+ PEs, the temptation to sell them is also absent in most cases. If one can just keep a look on their Net NPAs and Restructured loans, they are easy to analyse too.

I sometimes wonder what else is required in our quest to find Bluest of the Blue Chip and that too atreasonable valuations…

Thanks

Ranvir Dehal

Hi Ranvir,

You are right. Certainly bluest of bluechips can come from non-FMCG Sectors. FMCG was just the most obvious first sector - much easier to understand.Pharma and Banking space for sure, should throw up a few winners as the Motilal Oswal studies have shown.

But paintingYES bank, Axis Bank, Karur vysya bank, ICICI bank, ING Vysya bank, INDUS IND bank, city union bank, Hdfc bank- all of them in the same brush - is a defensive, passive strategy! Perhaps you can allocate roughly equally and be happy there; it may yield you decent returns too. But surely you will doing a poor job of allocating capital, in this way. Think about it!

As I have made it clear many times in ourCapital Allocation Framework, this is an aggressive strategy, fit only for passionate active investors.I spend lot of time doing in-depth analysis on promising businesses, meeting Managements, doing scuttlebutt with distributors and industry folks, and also discussions on ValuePickr. I am an active investor. I will be doing gross injustice to the effort & time we spend if I cannot differentiate between my portfolio candidates, and allocate capital more efficiently (have a framework, which we keep refining as we gain in experience & expertise).

So coming back …out of YES bank, Axis Bank, Karur vysya bank, ICICI bank, ING Vysya bank, INDUS IND bank, city union bank, HDFC bank, I surely want to pick only 1 or 2. where the odds are stacked decisively in favour. Once can intuitively pick HDFC Bank with minimal study, and be done with it - why all this big analysis, you may again ask.

That answer came to me in Mar 2009, when everything was screaming cheap. To take your banking example, all banks were available at 1 to 1.5x book value, except maybe HDFC at 2x. Gross & Net NPAs were good, Credit Adequacy was decent, Provisioning was Okay etc . But no one wanted to touch them. Yes Bank and SBI were available at less than 0.5 Book, fundamentals were good, the best ROEs in the business (High RoE & low P/BV is a sweet-spot combination) but everyone was shit scared to touch them… the common answer was sorry, Yes bank is a piddly bank only 4 years old, lending to SMEs, where liquidity has dried up, defaults are rising, contingent liabilities are 4x Assets, etc etc. Someone at TED guided some of us in the analysis, where we established there was very little risk in going with Yes Bank- Even if Asset quality deteriorated 10x in a year (which is impossible given the array of restructuring options) - the Bank will survive - it still would have better NPAs then HDFC Bank. And we got in at Rs 45-50!

Big Opportunities may/may not present themselves for a long time. But I have understood the value of prior homework. With homework done, we are better prepared to take advantage. The time to strike hard will come for sure - that’s the history of markets - when exactly no one can tell.

If we keep painting all decent investing prospects with the same brush…I know we will not be able to back ourselves to take advantage. We will never be prepared…we will be at a loss to decide…worse still, we will keep playing safe. And in my book, that’s a gross injustice to the time & effort we spend as active investors.

Sorry for the rambling answer…hope you got a flavour of why this quest at ValuePickr, to keep getting better at what we do - Separating the Wheat form the Chaff - Separating the Men from the Boys - will always be our guiding motto.

-Donald

4 Likes

Hi Atul,

Great!

See if you would like to do it this way. The first thing to do is perhaps introduce yourself a bit and express your interest in creating a Banking Industry FAQ in the Focused Group: Banking.

Saurabh a Banker with loads of experience,http://in.linkedin.com/pub/saurabh-shankar/6/759/2a2 Link: http://in.linkedin.com/pub/saurabh-shankar/6/759/2a2 is part of that group. We can take his help to refine what you and say Vinod MS come up with. Vinod MS is also an ex Banker, by the way:) and I am hoping he will be a willing collaborator. We can then request Admin for assigning create-edit rights for you folks.

-Donald

Donald,

Is the intention here to arrive at a valuepickr portfolio of ‘x’ stocks with a valuation and convition level assigned?

Theportfolio might bring out the best from large steady compunder to midcapsetc.

or is to choose only one company?

Thanks!!

Hi Supratik,

let’s say ValuePcikr Portfolio has 10 stocks. Currently all are mid/small caps.

The idea is to narrow down to say 5-6 Bluest of bluechips universe form which we can gradually SIP in to bolster the portfolio. Add a few high-quality growing bluechips that will also act as defensives and make for a all-season all-weather portfolio. Current concentration on mid/small caps does not make for a balanced portfolio. The risks are much higher. We are willing to sacrifice some of the gains for a substantially lower risk profile.

The exercise that is on is not a high-level exercise but aimed to be a detailed rigorous one; so that We ValuePickrs also gain the expertise in analysing and extracting the Best of Large Caps/Bluechips; gain deeper domain expertise in different sectors like Banking/Pharma/FMCG. Think we do not have enough exposure/expertise as a community. Trying to fill the obvious gaps:)

All part of doing the homework in preparation for big opportunities.

Rgds

Donald