specifically, I mean to ask on other countries’ equivalent of what we in India call as ‘reverse repo rate’. Suppose there is not much credit demand and banks park account holders’ money at central bank at negative reverse repo rate. How would the public react to their bank balance eroding just like that?
Does anyone feel there is "irrational exuberance’ in the market now?
USA has contracted about 200 tn $ as future payments (GDP of ~17 tn $), largely to baby boomers (Kotlikoff’s book: The Clash of Generations: Saving Ourselves, Our Kids, and Our Economy). This necessitates an intergenerational wealth transfer. Same with large parts of Europe, where high tax rates have already made them welfare states. Japan has been there for quite some time now. Raghuram Rajan used to say that demography is like gravity, you can’t escape it. Indian demography is positive. 2% of our GDP growth each year is on account of increase in productive hours. Also, we have we not committed to large benefit programs to the older generation. I don’t think that India needs an intergenerational wealth transfer and wouldn’t worry about it. Looking at pointers like India before 1991 where inflation was extremely high may not be helpful either.
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If reverse repo rate (or it’s equivalent) becomes negative, banks will be offering even lower rates to its depositors to maintain its spread. People will have a choice of keeping cash under the mattress (it will earn zero but better than -ve) or go up the risk ladder in search of high yields.
What I am suggesting is, they won’t resort to negative interest rates because general public will resist it.
Please tell what is the need for central banks to set rates? Let everything be market determined. But governments want some say (via central banks). I don’t think public pressure would let interest rates go negative (or meaningfully negative anyways).
Central bank set rates to achieve balance between inflation and economic growth. High rates reduce inflation but it also reduces growth, low rates encourage growth but it also cause high inflation. By timing the rate changes a central bank hopes to achieve the delicate balance between inflation and growth. It does that by studying economic indicators like govt deficit, industrial production and utilization, growth and inflation etc to make the decision.
Markets can sometimes fail and produce disasters like great depression, great recession, booms and busts etc. Central banks tried this model also (of letting markets determine the rates or laissez faire economics). In fact, with the advent of interest rate futures etc, market is determining future interest rates and central banks try not to surprise the markets by setting the rates close to what the futures market has already priced in. Central banks use their commentary to influence the futures market and only in exceptional circumstances do central banks intervene and surprise the markets. So to a good extend central banks do let markets decide rates in normal circumstances. Moreover, central banks only set the overnight rates. Markets set the medium and long term rates. Here again, only on exceptional cases, central banks buy/sell long dated securities to influence long term rates (quantitative easing).
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Positive demography is another misconception. If the young population is not gainfully employed the so called positive demography will turn against it. Somehow we are blinded with one sided view. Our education system needs complete overhaul to have people who are ready to be absorbed by industry and not like being trained by industry to make them useful.
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Negative real rates and negative interest rates are different things.
Savers among General public will feel the heat when real rates are negative. But governments/central banks can/will absorb that pressure.
But public resistance would be too much against negative interest rates (even in a deflationary environment). Also, u would indirectly be promoting people to store paper money rather than digital money…
Pre-2017 there were discussions of how PE 11 to 13 was an investors dream zone, which was not be expected or planned for, but if happens one would beg borrow or steal to invest. Once in a decade sort of a thing.
When it happened in 2008-09 and almost in 2013, discussions on forums and friends revolved around how PE is sure to go lower, due to poor industrial numbers and banking NPA. The news were so bad that any person investing in such a market was catching a falling knife.
This was not too long ago. But, now it is exactly the opposite. Discussion revolve around justifying how PE 27 is not only OK, but a bargain. Talks are doing rounds of how the Market and EPS are sure to go only one way and that is up. And any person not investing now is missing the proverbial bus. (Opposite of the falling knife).
This makes me think, can the core fundamentals of an economy of the largest democracy of the world, 1.2 Billion citizens, take a complete U-Turn in 2 years?
I am reading the same papers and visiting the same websites, and talking to the same demography of people. My sources have not change. But, the point of view is a stark contrast. Also, more number of people are now participating in meets and forums.
This makes me think, whether “They” are making us think what they want us to think?
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I have similar fallacies. Sometimes I think it’s easier to invest looking at choghadiya/almanac then reading forums etc. Just kidding. I think one of the key to investing is predicting cycles or identify businesses that have long term potential. This thread is about identify cycles based on PE ratio.
You have summed up the market behavior very well. And the participants of this forum are relatively better educated investors.
Disc. no offence to anyone, after all we are still humans.
I don’t think anyone is calling current market (market means overall ) a bargain, at least this group. I think more or less, we all agree that some correction is healthy. Quantum of correction is the core area of debate ( either time wise or movement wise ) which would make a generic market participation healthy .
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Current PE is 27, and Nifty 10500…
at PE 20 Nifty becomes 7800 (around 2017 lows)
at PE 17, 6600 (around 2016 lows)
at PE 15, 5800 (around 2014 lows)
Participants here don’t even consider PE 20 a possibility in 2018. If they do, then none has made a post about it. Lets just leave PE 17 and 15 aside for a discussion in another season.
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Two suggestions
- There was discussion around wrongness of 27 PE due to standalone and consolidated data . So, do check if 27 is correct
- Last few quarters,due to demonetization and GST , a lower base has been created, so one must standardize the impact with reasonable assumptions .
Then , I think looking at numbers would be better and then comes various points highlighted by both parties.also I would suggest to take a forward looking 12 months PE with -10 percent to plus 10 percent EPS growth because when shift of underpefornance happens , TTM analysis creates a mirage. So, better to consider both under performance and performance scenarios with future 12 months view.
This quarter we may see some out of box results which may be pure low base effect of last year yoy…
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There are plenty of reasons to justify 27 P/E. Just for argument sake, I wanted to list some of the reason for being cautious.
Following two charts need to watched for next 6 months. If the trejectory continues as it seems, it is not the question of if, but when (the market will correct)
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10 G- Sec yield - hardened by 1% in 5 months.
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Oil price has gone up by 45% in 6 months.
Love to hear counter arguments.
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Another issues that can warrant a correct is
- Banks increasing interest rates. (Today’s news For 1-year term, PNB has increased the rate from 5% to 5.7% on bulk term deposits, http://www.livemint.com/Industry/J2x46SpOoMYHUgJBz8FScN/PNB-hikes-interest-rate-on-term-deposits-by-up-to-125.html)
- Real estate players become aggressive as they would be now comfortable with RERA.
- FPI withdraw large sums if US becomes aggressive in there interest rates (but they are worried about inflation.
- Lots of state elections this year deciding
- Modiji would like to keep inflation under control for 2018 so to win election otherwise price rise will sure shorten his party so RBI may actually suck liquidity.
Others please contribute. 2018 looks to be a volatile year.
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Most notable point here is the state elections.
In the recent Vidhan Sabha elections in Gujarat BJP was, at one point, losing to Congress the reason why the market opened 900 points gap down. Although, BJP won with 99 seats, down by 16 seats from 115 won the last time.
Gujarat is the fort, home-ground of the kingpin. Therefore, one expects BJP to face tough competition in other states. Markets is highly likely to account for this change and cause a shift in sentiment.
This can prove detrimental because markets are rallying on sentiment, and not fundamentals. And if the sentiment is diluted, then what will support the market? FII too are net sellers this time around!
Add to it the increasing interest rates and increasing crude prices, I wonder what 2018 has in store.
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Banks have raised so much money (relative to their book value) through qips this year at these high valuations that after some fall from top, they would start looking attractive.
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Not only banks, if one classifies India as one of the top growing nations then all financial institutions be in Banks, NBFCs, HFC, Infra Finance etc have an opportunity. Like what tyres are to cars. Investors hv to find the ones with a sound management.
So, 5% (2 x 2.5%, if I remember correctly) of realized loss vs. X% of unrealized gain lets you sleep like a baby? How much tax would you pay for the gain if (and when) you realize it? How about time value of (lost vs gained) money? And brokerage commissions? Putting more good, after-tax money after bad ideas isn’t good risk management. Many professionals use options for hedging, but most of them fail to beat the market for the same reasons, no?
There are better risk management ideas which don’t involve taking X steps forward + 5 steps backward. Margin of Safety, Circle of Competence, Diversification (to some extent), Position Sizing, Debt/Equity Balance etc. are some of them.
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