Governments like USA’s have borrowed so much that they can’t increase the interest rate beyond a point, even if they want to… Their budgets will go out of control if they increase rates beyond a point…
While interest rates globally are unlikely to rise rapidly, I think it’s the trend which matters and not the actual rates.
Stock market is a discounting machine and as people start seeing rates go up, they are going to extrapolate them into future and sentiment is likely to be impacted.
No no, everyone knows that they can’t go up beyond a point… As the interest burden on government debt will explode… See Japan Govt debt for example… USA is heading in that direction in future… They simply CAN NOT increase rates beyond a point…
Many tangents. Lets refocus.
Some disagreed when the conversation came to Nifty easily reaching PE 17 and said that a 35% correction (from 10400 to 6700) is a very distant possibility.
On the other hand, some of us seem to consider 6700 to 7000 a strong possibility as it is only a 30 to 35% correction away. This sort of a correction does not need anything apocalyptic to happen, as it has happened several times before, in fact every 5 years or so.
This is a statement you can make any day. Question is given current information, what is the probability of that happening?
maybe its the new normal nifty PE now and this bull market is quite matured and i dont think we can see 9000 unless there is a big geopolitical issue which can rattle all financial markets…who are we to decide if its expensive or not…let mr.market decide…people waiting on corrections will remain in sidelines and they are bound to buy at higher prices
These days when I meet friends and relative, I categorize them as following:
- Never invested in stock markets, nor care about it.
- Burned their fingers badly in 2008 and have stayed out. They may or may not be regretting it, however, don’t talk about it.
- Fully invested, very optimistic, ready to invest more. Don’t see any downside risk in near future.
I’m not sure if there is any meaning in this. However, have a feeling, that when the type 2 eventually start investing, market should be ready to form a top.
The peak of pessimism was policy paralysis during 2013( I was in infra financing n files were literally not moving) . That time NIFTY touched 5000 I think. From 2013, with a 5 percent EPS growth in 5 years (NIFTY EPS from 328 TO 390 between March 2013 to current in 4.5 years) , it turns out to be around 6500.
So, now if we consider today’s time without any pessimism or optimism, how much extra would we add to 6500. Let us say the range of swing of optimism and pessimism is between 30 to 40% which means +15 to20% on optimism and -15 to 20%on pessimism. So, considering now, 6500 was pessimistic number of last 5-6 years, let us add 15% to it and we are almost 1000 points up. So, 7500 should be the NIFTY value without much bias.
Now, what is the bias. When growth base is lower n many of indicators n structural reforms are looking to be in place, then, historical chances of bubble has been lower and vice versa when economy grows at super high rate for multiple years and every thing is glittering gold, chances of bubble formation are high. The current situation seems none of the two but the 1st situation with super high optimism. So, the bias is over optimism of this future performance. So, from current 10,000-10,400 points, based on NIFTY performance and removing all such bias, the maximum possible correction I see is :
- -5% EPS growth - very less probability ( lower growth base ): 10,200 (avg) to 7100 (-5% from 7500): 30% gap
- 0% EPS growth - Low probability ( lower growth base ): 10,200 (avg) to 7500 (0% from 7500): 26% gap
- 5% EPS growth - Medium probability ( lower growth base ): 10,200 (avg) to 7100 (5% from 7500): 23% gap
- 10% EPS growth - High probability ( lower growth base ): 10,200 (avg) to 8200 (10% from 7500): 19% Gap this could be 2 years of optimism factored in
- 15% EPS growth - Medium probability ( lower growth base ): 10,200 (avg) to 8625 (15% from 7500): 15% Gap. this could be 1 year of optimism factored in
So, if EPS grows at 10-15%, I do not see any chances of major correction beyond 10%-15% which will make overall market fairly valued and pockets of opportunities may emerge. The trouble starts with less than 5% growth which may need 25% type of correction and may lead to turning of over optimistic sentiments into over pessimistic sentiments which may means more than 25% correction.
So, the Crux lies in future EPS growth and one has to do his own research.
I have tried to highlight the above method as a number driven, easy to understand approach which suited me to do this academically. Principally, I am a bottom fisher and I do not care much where is NIFTY going until and unless there are clear signs of bubble in overall market. I think there are major pockets of small bubble forming up and minor pockets of opportunities some value gap. So,
- On NIFTY basis, the odds to make big money is low, the odds to lose money is high on a NIFTY basis (time based correction could also be a loss of money if NIFTY stays range bound).
- The chances of 10-15% correction looks moderately possible even with a 10% growth which will make markets healthy
- 25% or bigger fall need some strong justification that why EPS growth would be muted as reforms is a lagging indicator and if one believes reforms are happening then lag effect should be visible in economic data sooner or later
- If NIFTY grows at 15%, the exuberance may continue and we might see earnings driven bull run (so far it has been optimism driven bull run from NIFTY perspective, history is evidence it has happened until the gradients of next bubble were formed)
4 On a stock to stock basis, all this does not matter until there is total bubble in overall market and view is limited to 1-2 years
So, for sure this is not a time to go all in cash and try to time the market. For 10-15% , healthy correction , a 20% cash position might be worth if someone invests by NIFTY logic. For bottom fishers, all this does not matter.
Counter comments with logical data based justifications are invited.
I am just adding a case study by renowned investor Peter Lynch
“People spend all this time trying to figure out “What time of the year should I make an investment? When should I invest?” And it’s such a waste of time. It’s so futile. I did a great study, it’s an amazing exercise.
In the 30 years, 1965 to 1995, if you had invested a thousand dollars, you had incredible good luck, you invested at the low of the year, you picked the low day of the year, you put your thousand dollars in, your return would have been 11.7% compounded.
Now some poor unlucky soul, the Jackie Gleason of the world, put in the high of the year. He or she picked the high of the year; put their thousand dollars in at the peak every single time, miserable record, 30 years in a row, picked the high of the year. Their return was 10.6%. That’s the only difference between the high of the year and the low of the year.
Some other person put in the first day of the year, their return was 11%. I mean the odds of that are very little, but people spend an unbelievable amount of mental energy trying to pick what the market’s going to do, what time of the year to buy it. It’s just not worth it.”
Excellent timing returned 11.7%. Lousy timing gave 10.6% and disciplined investing provided 11%. Always keep this in mind and stay the course.
Everyday these brokerage house increases there targets
Maruti crossed 10k, we are increasing target on basis of bla bla bla to 14k… I mean WOW. And what if it reaches 14k then they will come and say we are increasing our target further to 20k.
The markets are showing sign that it is not stable at current level, falling 0.7 to 1% is a regular thing these days and just look at midcaps rising 20-80% in 1month and even continuous UC’s. It is time to make money by momentum trading… look at a chart’s of stocks which rise 5% or more or which are in top gainers the mango-man will come to buy the very next day in expectation of UC, so you can check the graphs of such stock’s and you would come to know when to put in the money, just buy it then and exit after taking 20%.
I have been doing this for last 2 months, very rewarding I must say…
The difference between 10.6% and 11.7% does not seem much but if you extrapolate it over 30 years, you would find that the corpus of the market timer is 50% more than the lousy one.
Not advising market timing but simply indicating the power of a small percent over extended period of time.
Perfectly valid for someone investing for next 30 years. The discussion here though is different. Its about whether someone who is invested almost fully, should continue to remain invested, or exit partially/fully from the market and thereafter sit on cash to again re-invest heavily when the market tanks. The returns thus made will not only be more efficient, but heavily more. Imagine exiting the market today with all your money - “X” crores and investing it back when market is at 0.5times today, your portfolio holdings doubled, (not the value) and when the market again goes higher, you have automatically made a lot more money than staying invested now. This is the point being discussed. Let me quote Donald’s opening post:
However the discipline to forgo the cream, might also mean tremendous capital safety for me. I would not again be caught in a situation of hopelessly remaining fully-invested; worse still - be unable to bet decisively, & heavily on the very stong buy signals in Oct 2008 and Mar 2009, because all my funds were tied-up in buy-and-hold!
I agree…but can anyone time the market…9 out of 10 cant…but if you have invested for specific goal and if you happen to meet it…then it makes sense to take the money off…but what if it’s a retirement goal which is years away? will that be a good idea to liquidate and sit in cash waiting for markets to fall? most renowned investors are fully invested at all time…lastly its all in the individuals risk appetite though
AFAIR, there was a time when Buffet had sold all his holding in the fund or whatever he was managing and returned money back to the investors saying there are no more investible opportunities. Not saying the case is same now.
Is everyone Nifty investor here?
There are tons of stocks languishing below historical multiples (10 years) - IT pack, Pharma, Tata Motors.
There are many which are trading at historical multiples (10 years) - Energy pack, Utilities, HDFC, ITC
A very sensible thing to say. Yes, IT Pharma nice valuations. Get out of expensive and get into cheap.
Let’s discuss a few points around the decision making process of exit.
- Personal situation. If someone’s personal situation demands encashment, or a personal goal of wealth creation has been achieved, it makes sense to cash out now. This is very true and valid comment and is as true at a Nifty of 20 as when Nifty is at 30. What we are discussing here is outside of that personal situation where there is no personal need for cash and exploring the framework for a informed decision to exit - based on historical past data where sustaining Nifty about 25 has been difficult for long and the returns thereafter have always been muted or even negative. So, assuming one has significant investment, To Sell, or Not to Sell is the question. This is a framework for financial optimization, i.e. based purely on selling high now, so one can buy low later. Is this timing the market? Hell, yes! And it’s true that 9 out of 10 do not get it right not because of errors in decision around the level of selling, but because of psychological barriers to remain rational in the face of exuberance! In other words, it does not matter if I sell when Nifty is 10400 or 10000 or even 9500 if its going down to 7500 in next 12 months.
- Is everyone investor in Nifty. No, of course not. But the reason Nifty is called an index is for a reason. When Nifty goes down in a sustained manner, very, very few stocks if any will withstand the selling pressure and hold its ground, or advance. When I check my holdings in 2007/8/9, I see that every stock I owned went down, some less, some more, and this includes large caps, midcaps and everything from Pharma to IT to Banking. Tata Motors: 770/140, Tisco 850/135, HDFC Bank 1720/900, Biocon 550/110. But the key takeway is that these recovered, and still provided decent returns thereafter. THe question is…could I have sold Tata motors at 770, or…say even 700 or even 600…and later bought back at 140/180/200 ? Is such an opportunity presenting itself again now? If I had done that, the portfolio thus constructed after a year of waiting out would be at least 2-3 times larger for the same cash invested !
- Get out of expensive, get into cheap. Yes, this seems the most straightforward course of action and needs to be investigated more. In this raging bull market, if a stock is cheap, or even relatively cheaper with regard to other stocks that is due to causes which is likely to remain, so if an expensive stock like HDFC bank goes down 40%, very likely a cheaper stock like Karnataka Bank also goes down 40% or even more. In fact, in 2008/9, Karnataka Bank went down from 255 to 68, and KB has remained relatively cheap to HDFC Bank forever, and that did not lessen its fall; in fact, it fell more.
In the process of this discussion, my own thinking is being stimulated and clarified - so thanks to the forum for enabling this and the members who are participating in this discussion.
Point 3, moving from costly to cheap is sector rotation and not moving down the quality curve in same sector.
2008 correction didn’t make us lose as much money then as much as it made us stay out of the market today and lose upside now. - Kalpen Parekh